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  • EV charging and PUC rates

    Now that I have solar and feel relatively isolated from PUC gouging (except for the increasing minimum fees), I leased an EV and will be adding another shortly. Before my first EV, I have had a surplus of credit due to the lucrative PV/TOU plan for my usage with SCE. At the end of the year my $4xx.00 credit was mailed to me pennies on the dollar. The addition of EVs to the mix will fix that problem. My comment /question is regarding the low price of energy on TOU plan that used to be $0.11 super off peak, that is now $0.13/kWh. At that low price, EVs show significant fuel savings. But, PUCs always f*@# you, so as they decide to raise the rates, it becomes less and less clever to use EV from a fuel cost perspective. Also going from $0.13/kWh to $0.20/kWh could be a 50% increase in my fuel costs! I have this sneaking suspicion that the PUCs are trying to get everyone switched to EV on cheap off-hours energy so that they can slowly stick it to us once we are pregnant ....

    PS. Anyone know what the proposed SCE 2018+ rate hikes are supposed to mean for PV and/or EV owners?

  • #2
    What do you expect from a state government that has it's head in the sand and thinks going 100% RE for everything is a good thing. The only good thing is that it will end up costing the customers more and put you farther out on a limb if for some reason RE does not produce.

    I waiting to see how CA does during the Solar Eclipse coming this August. I wonder how many natural gas peakers will be started up and how that is going to raise your electric costs.

    I will continue to say that if you want to reduce your electrical costs then it is real simple. USE LESS. Which includes not going to an EV.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
      I waiting to see how CA does during the Solar Eclipse coming this August. I wonder how many natural gas peakers will be started up and how that is going to raise your electric costs.
      Given that the path of totality isn't over California, I think the effects will be minimal. Keep in mind that it's cloudy sometimes.
      I will continue to say that if you want to reduce your electrical costs then it is real simple. USE LESS. Which includes not going to an EV.
      Unless you are buying one to replace a gas guzzler. Then you end up paying less overall, although you still pay more for power.

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      • #4
        Wait until your state and federal government figures out you are Freeloading and not paying road fuel taxes like the rest of of us who pay to use the roads.
        MSEE, PE

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        • #5
          SK, many states have figured this out. Some have proposed increasing the cost of registering EV's. I haven't read of any doing this. I am sure it will happen eventually.

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          • #6
            Even at $0.15 per kWh and 3 miles per kWh from the grid your energy cost is the same as a $2.50 per gallon at 50 mph. Most using TOU in CA will pay less per kWh, get less than 50 mpg and pay more than $2.50 per gallon. Plus, you might buy energy from the power company instead of paying the minimum charge and getting pennies on the dollar for excess generation.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by FFE View Post
              SK, many states have figured this out. Some have proposed increasing the cost of registering EV's. I haven't read of any doing this. I am sure it will happen eventually.
              California will start charging electric vehicle fees in 2020

              About half of the EVs sold in the US are currently in the Golden State.

              While some states are still offering incentives for electric vehicle buyers, California will soon become the biggest state to start charging fees for EV ownership. California is estimated to account for about half of the country's EV sales, so the state is keen on recuperating some of the money it won't be making from gasoline taxes.

              The fees will take effect starting with 2020 model year plug-in vehicles, Autoblog reports. Those vehicles will have one-time $100 registration fee upfront, followed by and annual registration fee that varies based on the market value of the vehicle. On the low end, the fees are $25 for a vehicle valued at less than $5,000, but anyone with a $60,000-plus plug-in vehicle will be paying $175 per year to keep their tags up to date. On the other hand, California has the highest gas prices in the country, and even on the high end, those registration fees will end up costing less than three or four tanks of gas. Internal combustion fans won't be getting a break either: California's gas tax will hit 30 cents per gallon by November 2017. All told, California's EV fees are expected to generate $52 billion over 10 years, which will be put back into the state's budget for infrastructure repairs.

              Elsewhere in the US, EV fees have already caught on. According to the Sierra Club, 10 states plus Washington, DC already have similar fees while eight others are currently considering similar legislation.
              Kerry
              San Diego, CA

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              • #8
                Originally posted by FFE View Post
                SK, many states have figured this out. Some have proposed increasing the cost of registering EV's. I haven't read of any doing this. I am sure it will happen eventually.
                Yes I know every state and the feds know it. All states and the feds have the same idea. You pay up when you buy your license tag/sticker based on mileage. It is 10 years over due. Pay up.

                Fed is looking at 1-cent per mile, states vary from 10 mils to 1-cent in CA. In some states like CA, NY Hi and so on will cost the EV owner more than gasoline. As for emissions, not much gain. In some states that use a lot of coal,negative gain. Only way to make EV's work is with nuclear power.
                Last edited by Sunking; 05-16-2017, 10:33 PM.
                MSEE, PE

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                  Yes I know every state and the feds know it. All states and the feds have the same idea. You pay up when you buy your license tag/sticker based on mileage. It is 10 years over due. Pay up.

                  Fed is looking at 1-cent per mile, states vary from 10 mils to 1-cent in CA. In some states like CA, NY Hi and so on will cost the EV owner more than gasoline. As for emissions, not much gain. In some states that use a lot of coal,negative gain. Only way to make EV's work is with nuclear power.
                  The more serious proposals I've read about related to vehicle mileage tax will apply to all vehicles, not just EV's. The effective price of gas *might* fall once those fuel taxes are removed, but might not. Total cost of ownership for an EV, with no oil changes, transmission maintenance, etc, still compares favorably to ICE even with the price off gasoline falling.
                  CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
                    Given that the path of totality isn't over California, I think the effects will be minimal. Keep in mind that it's cloudy sometimes.

                    True. It could be an issue for other states that rely on solar to generate power.

                    Unless you are buying one to replace a gas guzzler. Then you end up paying less overall, although you still pay more for power.
                    It depends on which EV your purchase and what the cost of electricity is in your area.

                    My point was that it seems a lot of people like to complain about how their electric bill is going up but instead of using less they purchase an EV or some other device that uses more electricity and end up spending more then they were using before they installed pv.

                    All I am saying is that people should either stop complaining about the high price of electricity or do something to use less not more. Seems contradictory to me.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FFE View Post
                      SK, many states have figured this out. Some have proposed increasing the cost of registering EV's. I haven't read of any doing this. I am sure it will happen eventually.
                      Oregon has. http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/RUFPP/pages/index.aspx

                      WWW

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                        It depends on which EV your purchase and what the cost of electricity is in your area.

                        My point was that it seems a lot of people like to complain about how their electric bill is going up but instead of using less they purchase an EV or some other device that uses more electricity and end up spending more then they were using before they installed pv.

                        All I am saying is that people should either stop complaining about the high price of electricity or do something to use less not more. Seems contradictory to me.
                        Anecdotal but nasty reality that I've suspected for a long time but now observed: Often folks who add a PV system increase their total use, at least for the folks I monitor in my HOA. Makes sense. Most folks around here get PV mostly due to perceived high electric bills. PV makes those bills go down, removing most/all of the visible drain on financial resources, and so removing the need to do anything about high bills that no longer exist. The use and bills then continue their upward trend as the incentive to do something about them is less, at least for a time, until the bills reach their former PITA levels.

                        I'd bet over time residential PV will actually allow residential electricity use to increase until future electric bills approach or exceed their pre PV levels in terms of onerous visibility.

                        All this adds to my opinion that the real and long term answer to lower electric bills is to use less electricity.

                        One, perhaps cynical way to look at PV is that it is doing no more than delaying the day when that real and long term solution becomes evident to most folks. I suspect that given our headlong rush into self centered imbecility, that day may never come.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                          Anecdotal but nasty reality that I've suspected for a long time but now observed: Often folks who add a PV system increase their total use, at least for the folks I monitor in my HOA. Makes sense. Most folks around here get PV mostly due to perceived high electric bills. PV makes those bills go down, removing most/all of the visible drain on financial resources, and so removing the need to do anything about high bills that no longer exist. The use and bills then continue their upward trend as the incentive to do something about them is less, at least for a time, until the bills reach their former PITA levels.

                          I'd bet over time residential PV will actually allow residential electricity use to increase until future electric bills approach or exceed their pre PV levels in terms of onerous visibility.

                          All this adds to my opinion that the real and long term answer to lower electric bills is to use less electricity.

                          One, perhaps cynical way to look at PV is that it is doing no more than delaying the day when that real and long term solution becomes evident to most folks. I suspect that given our headlong rush into self centered imbecility, that day may never come.
                          One of my concerns is that as more cities and states choose to rely on a higher % or their power coming from RE they will find that the only way to make that work is to use less. Then there may be enough RE or storage or other type of backup power that can support their needs 24/7.

                          Using more electricity while also depending on a higher % of RE makes it much more of a rocky road and improves the odds of a failure with the lights going out at some point.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                            Anecdotal but nasty reality that I've suspected for a long time but now observed: Often folks who add a PV system increase their total use, at least for the folks I monitor in my HOA. Makes sense. Most folks around here get PV mostly due to perceived high electric bills. PV makes those bills go down, removing most/all of the visible drain on financial resources, and so removing the need to do anything about high bills that no longer exist.
                            Agreed there. Consumption will tend to increase as people stop doing everything they can to save energy.
                            The use and bills then continue their upward trend as the incentive to do something about them is less, at least for a time, until the bills reach their former PITA levels. I'd bet over time residential PV will actually allow residential electricity use to increase until future electric bills approach or exceed their pre PV levels in terms of onerous visibility.
                            I have never seen this. Hasn't happened to me, or to anyone I know who has had solar installed - about 20 people in all. They tend to use more power overall, but their bills remain lower because face it, beyond a certain point people don't have a use for more power.

                            Have you seen this happen?
                            One, perhaps cynical way to look at PV is that it is doing no more than delaying the day when that real and long term solution becomes evident to most folks. I suspect that given our headlong rush into self centered imbecility, that day may never come.
                            As a people we have had a history of using more and more energy per person. This is largely a good thing - it allows us the standard of living we have now. A future where we use even more energy - but that energy is significantly cheaper and cleaner - is a good one.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
                              Agreed there. Consumption will tend to increase as people stop doing everything they can to save energy.

                              I have never seen this. Hasn't happened to me, or to anyone I know who has had solar installed - about 20 people in all. They tend to use more power overall, but their bills remain lower because face it, beyond a certain point people don't have a use for more power.

                              Have you seen this happen?

                              As a people we have had a history of using more and more energy per person. This is largely a good thing - it allows us the standard of living we have now. A future where we use even more energy - but that energy is significantly cheaper and cleaner - is a good one.
                              Cheaper and cleaner energy is a good one and I fully support that plan. But where in the world is that happening.

                              Seems like the cost of electricity has gone up in places where more RE is introduced like Germany and even swapping out Oil fired generation to RE hasn't dropped the price in Hawaii, but I could be wrong.

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