Starting My Search

[sceblack]

I have had a few estimates and am glad I found this site, it seams like a wealth of knowledge. I had 2 of the bigger companies estimate, one never came to the house and one came but never went on my roof. They both wouldn't send someone on the roof until I signed a contract and I was not comfortable with that. Another company came over and the rep went right onto the roof and came up with a completely different plan. The first 2 companies said I could fit 30 panels on my roof and when I questioned putting them too close to the chimney shade and on the north side of my roof they said it was fine. The guy that went on the roof said it was stupid to put them where the chimney could shade them and even worse to put them on the north side of my roof. His design was using all higher watt panels and fitting 18 of them which seemed like a better idea even though it didn't create as much power (about a 70% offset). A few questions:

1) Staying off the north side seems like a no brainer. I drove around my neighborhood and not one person has them on that side of the house. Is he right about staying away from the chimney, is that a general rule? I was looking at my chimney area yesterday throughout the day and it was shadowed at some points but a lot of the time it was not.

2) He had quoted me 18 Panasonic 330 panels and a SE6000A inverter. Would there be a need to go to the SE7600A? At what point is that necessary and what are the advantages?

3) What has been the trend in size, price and higher watt panels? With 18 panels my system would not generate as much as I was hoping for. Part of me thinks that with the way technology is going the panels are going to be getting smaller, cheaper and more powerful. I would hate to get the 330's now and in 2 years there are 500's that are the same price. He said I could get more powerful panels but they are crazy expensive. My thought is that a 4k TV was crazy expensive 2 years ago and 1/3 of the price now. If solar panels are the same way I might be better served to wait a couple years.

4) Have most of you had better experiences with smaller local companies (the one I like so far is 120 employees so it is not a tiny shop) or the bigger national companies? So far I feel more comfortable with the smaller company but think the national companies have a better shot of being there until the end of the warranty.

5) Any good recommendations in Orange County California?

6) Any hot tips on things I should ask or pay attention to that would not come up in a normal sales meeting?

Any help is appreciated, Thank you.

[J.P.M.]

See my recent post to New Member in upstate NY .

[ButchDeal]

we can't give you much recommendation on the chimney or north slope without knowing anything about your chimney or roof. in many southern locations like yours the roof is very low pitch and the north isn't terrible. Also they are rarely exactly north.

Chimney isn't usually a problem as it is a shadow that moves around so with SolarEdge you will get as much as you can there.
Panasonic 330 modules are very nice
Solar is advancing very slowly, there is not likely to be much change in performance, certainly not worth the lose in savings from not going solar now.

[tyab]

Just a general point given you said you are in Orange County. Depending on where you live in Orange County don't forget to take into account the summer fog - may not be an issue if you are inland but anywhere near the 405 you will want to take that into account. I'm not sure if models like SAM take into account the fact that a same zipcode can have dramatically different summer fog - from almost nothing to stuff that does not burn off until early afternoon. It's been awhile since I lived there but I seem to remember June and August were the worst for fog near John Wayne.

[sceblack]

See my recent post to New Member in upstate NY .

Just read it. Great information and I will definitely do more research.

[Six4KilowWatt]

The guy who got on the roof, and suggested not wasting money on inefficient panel placement is probably right. We have a few panels placed by our chimney and they are in essence, not very efficient...Consider the cost of a few extra watts, vs the cost of not having the panels.

If your roof is not very steep, you might want to consider a DYI project. Finding an honest electrician to help you build the schematic wouldn't be easy, but it could save thousands.

Big companies use fear based tactics regarding warranty support. Solar panels are passive components with low rates of failure, they either work or they don't.

As always go with your gut...The best solar installers are the ones who size a system based on reality and not just big sales...

Can you and some family and friends do the monkey work? It's not rocket science...but the solar companies would like you to believe it is. If you can wire the strings appropriately together and install the grounding wires, you could have the panels on the roof ready to be wired to the live circuit, there are books on the subject.

If you must use a company, go with your gut. I think the guy who told you not to waste energy with bad panel placement, is suggestive of a reasonable person.

The number one question to ask is price per watt...Guarantees are never exact science. Is your roof in good enough shape? They always guarantee they won't screw up your roof during the install, but they don't guarantee your roof will last the lifetime of the system.

Larger panels are better since they will theoretically collect more light. The inverter size should be based on the size of the actual system. Once it is sized you are fixed with what you have. Choose one size now and go with it. I think 18 panels should be a good start.

[ButchDeal]

Larger panels are better since they will theoretically collect more light.

That is a damn silly thing to say.

yes a 72 cell module will collect more light but they will also cost more but usually only slightly more per watt.
so if you can get a 60 cell and a72 cell from the same manufacturer at the same efficiency at the same $/w why is 72 cell better?
it isn't just put on more 60 cell modules till you get to the same wattage and usually 60 cell are actually a bit cheaper and often have better efficiency.

[Six4KilowWatt]

Butch...I didn't even say 60 cell vs 72 cell...I just said larger panels collect more...It's kind of silly to suggest otherwise. The ability to collect the sun's photons need a surface area to do the job. this isn't to say 60 cells are inferior or 72 cells are superior.

I guess you bring up a good point that a higher efficiency rating of a panel can be misleading. From cost perspective it can be more cost effective to buy more 60 cells than less 72 cell panels. It really all depends on the application.

For some people having less larger panels to achieve the same output is better, for others they have plenty of real estate to use more panels. I think it's a really good point, because sometimes more is more, and less is more. Depends on the application.

I guess I was a bit misleading. But I do think most people would rather have less roof penetrations than more...The same output with less panels is where bigger is better but not always. I think it should be noted that solar installers often try to sell the efficiency numbers simply based on the size of the panels, not necessarily, reality based just "hey those little guys are this percent, these are higher, get them"

[ButchDeal]

Butch...I didn't even say 60 cell vs 72 cell...I just said larger panels collect more...It's kind of silly to suggest otherwise. The ability to collect the sun's photons need a surface area to do the job. this isn't to say 60 cells are inferior or 72 cells are superior.

I did not suggest otherwise. I stated that it was silly to make the statement.
72 cell modules are larger than 60 cell modules

I guess you bring up a good point that a higher efficiency rating of a panel can be misleading. From cost perspective it can be more cost effective to buy more 60 cells than less 72 cell panels. It really all depends on the application.

60 cell and 72 cell have little to do with effeciency. generally the most effcicent modules are first produced in the 60 cell size.

For some people having less larger panels to achieve the same output is better, for others they have plenty of real estate to use more panels. I think it's a really good point, because sometimes more is more, and less is more. Depends on the application.

I guess I was a bit misleading. But I do think most people would rather have less roof penetrations than more...The same output with less panels is where bigger is better but not always. I think it should be noted that solar installers often try to sell the efficiency numbers simply based on the size of the panels, not necessarily, reality based just "hey those little guys are this percent, these are higher, get them"

you don't necessarily get less roof penetrations with 72 cell modules than with 60 cell.

you can get less penetrations with portrait install rather than landscape and with better racking like ironridge XR100 over flimsy stuff.
but for example say you used panasonic 330 watt modules (actually 60 cell size but uses 96 smaller cells)
and you were going for say 3.3kw of solar. so you would have 10 of them.
or you could use 72 cell less efficient modules of about 330watts and you would have 10 of them as well. same penetrations...

Less area covered, less light collected etc. with the panasonic but same power generated in the end.

[Six4KilowWatt]

Large panels of higher wattage collect more light, thus need less roof penetrations...Bigger panels, better harvest, laws of physics apply. But you can go ahead and keep twisting my words, since you are a guru with thousands of posts.

Everything I say will be taken out of context, you are right, I'm wrong

[ButchDeal]

Large panels of higher wattage collect more light, thus need less roof penetrations...Bigger panels, better harvest, laws of physics apply. But you can go ahead and keep twisting my words, since you are a guru with thousands of posts.

my point is that yes larger panels collect more light. it is silly to say that because it is the same as saying that larger modules are bigger. redundant.

They do not necessarily generate more power though. There are 60 cell modules of higher wattage than 72 cell modules.
Better harvest? well could be or maybe not. depends on what you say is better.
I am not trying to twist your words just make clear that larger is not always better and often is less so as most manufacturers put their highest efficiency cells in the 60 cell size not the 72 cell. and often the 60 cells are a bit cheaper per watt.

[Six4KilowWatt]

True and most manufactures say one thing or the other. Still I think bigger panels can be advantageous in many situations. Where you need the most power with the least amount of roof space. However with California fire code...Smaller modules in portrait and landscape modes, and mixed configurations make things a great dealer easier to configure than the bigger modules.

The 3 foot clearance, really makes certain homes a big pain and in that case even smaller is better.

[J.P.M.]

Just read it. Great information and I will definitely do more research.

Take FWIW. Question everything.

[Mike90250]

....Larger panels are better since they will theoretically collect more light. ....

And that's exactly why my wife does not allow full length mirrors in the house, they make you larger. Only dresser mirrors or over the sink.

[J.P.M.]

Large panels of higher wattage collect more light, thus need less roof penetrations...Bigger panels, better harvest, laws of physics apply. But you can go ahead and keep twisting my words, since you are a guru with thousands of posts.

Everything I say will be taken out of context, you are right, I'm wrong

Physically larger panels will be exposed to more solar energy. Another equally true (and perhaps more correct) statement is that larger panels of lower wattage will collect less energy. When comparing the side by side output of 2 panels of equal physical size, the more efficient panel will produce more output. So what's the point ?

Bigger panels do not necessarily mean "better harvest", whatever that means.

Usually the discussion is about arrays and not individual panel characteristics per se. Physically larger arrays will usually require more roof penetrations than physically smaller arrays. Kind of a no brainer. However, the number of roof penetrations is but one of a number of design considerations that must be addressed and balanced in a good design.

FWIW, it doesn't look to me that your words are being taken out of context as much as an attempt is being made to point out shortcoming in your understanding of how PV works. In short, your context is on shaky ground.