Goodbye SDG&E, Ground Mount Installation Contract Signed Today

[CharlieEscCA]

After deliberation and discussing more what a homeowner managed project entails with both the AHJ and SDGE, I decided to leave my project to the professionals.

My system will be an 8.04 kW DC, 24 Q.QPLUS L-G4.2 335 DC watt panels, SolarEdge SE7600 invertor with optimizers, and ProSolar GroundTrac mounting system. Array location is about 150' from 150 amp sub-panel in house, and about 300' from 200 amp main panel at separate detached garage. I was told that the price will hold whether they have to trench to the main panel or can go to the closer sub-panel. I'm leaning towards asking them to go to the main panel just for a cleaner install (plenty of room in main panel for new breakers, have to switch to double breakers on existing breakers to make room in the sub-panel), and the invertor is likely better off hanging on the outside wall of the detached garage wall (under an eave) than somewhere on the outside of my house.

Installer is local San Diego company, family owned, 5000+ installs, with lots of ground mounts. Extremely high rating here at solar panel review site. Written (in contract) first year production guarantee of 13,919 kWh, with panels added at no charge if not met.

All SDGE fees covered, all plans, all permitting, all trenching, all costs. 1K payment at signing, balance due at inspection sign-off (30 days to pay, then 2% monthly service fee).

$2.83 per watt less the 30% federal tax credit. This may be high elsewhere in the US, but I think it's a pretty darn good price for the San Diego market given the work involved with my ground mount system. With the insane SDGE rates, payback should be less than 4 years (hedging some because this is sized quite a bit above my current annual usage but we currently suffer greatly when we get out hot days because running the A/C just kills the bills -- the additional capacity will result using the A/C a lot more and thus a happier wife, and for me, a better life too.

I'm sure there was money to be saved by buying equipment and subbing out work (posts, trenching, But when I weighed all that could go wrong with any sub or SDGE or the county or trenching, then add in the production guarantee plus being confident I have an installer that based on due diligence I can count on AND the value of my time and the value of not having to WORRY or MANAGE this, it was a pretty easy call that at the price point I negotiated, leave it to the professionals.

[SunEagle]

After deliberation and discussing more what a homeowner managed project entails with both the AHJ and SDGE, I decided to leave my project to the professionals.

My system will be an 8.04 kW DC, 24 Q.QPLUS L-G4.2 235 DC watt panels, SolarEdge SE7600 invertor with optimizers, and ProSolar GroundTrac mounting system. Array location is about 150' from 150 amp sub-panel in house, and about 300' from 200 amp main panel at separate detached garage. I was told that the price will hold whether they have to trench to the main panel or can go to the closer sub-panel. I'm leaning towards asking them to go to the main panel just for a cleaner install (plenty of room in main panel for new breakers, have to switch to double breakers on existing breakers to make room in the sub-panel), and the invertor is likely better off hanging on the outside wall of the detached garage wall (under an eave) than somewhere on the outside of my house.

Installer is local San Diego company, family owned, 5000+ installs, with lots of ground mounts. Extremely high rating here at solar panel review site. Written (in contract) first year production guarantee of 13,919 kWh, with panels added at no charge if not met.

All SDGE fees covered, all plans, all permitting, all trenching, all costs. 1K payment at signing, balance due at inspection sign-off (30 days to pay, then 2% monthly service fee).

$2.83 per watt less the 30% federal tax credit. This may be high elsewhere in the US, but I think it's a pretty darn good price for the San Diego market given the work involved with my ground mount system. With the insane SDGE rates, payback should be less than 4 years (hedging some because this is sized quite a bit above my current annual usage but we currently suffer greatly when we get out hot days because running the A/C just kills the bills -- the additional capacity will result using the A/C a lot more and thus a happier wife, and for me, a better life too.

I'm sure there was money to be saved by buying equipment and subbing out work (posts, trenching, But when I weighed all that could go wrong with any sub or SDGE or the county or trenching, then add in the production guarantee plus being confident I have an installer that based on due diligence I can count on AND the value of my time and the value of not having to WORRY or MANAGE this, it was a pretty easy call that at the price point I negotiated, leave it to the professionals.

I am not sure what others will say but I am impressed with those production numbers and $/watt installation costs for a ground mount system.

Keep us informed on the status as well as pictures of the install.

[ButchDeal]

I think you mean 335w modules not 235watt.

[CharlieEscCA]

I think you mean 335w modules not 235watt.

I did indeed mean the 335 watt panels -- I have edited the original post.

[CharlieEscCA]

I am not sure what others will say but I am impressed with those production numbers and $/watt installation costs for a ground mount system.

Keep us informed on the status as well as pictures of the install.

I will definitely post installation pictures -- is there a better forum area for install pictures, or should I just post pictures here in this thread?

Installation will likely be in the next 3 to 6 weeks, but the sooner the better given the yet again SDGE rate hike that took effect yesterday

[SunEagle]

I will definitely post installation pictures -- is there a better forum area for install pictures, or should I just post pictures here in this thread?

Installation will likely be in the next 3 to 6 weeks, but the sooner the better given the yet again SDGE rate hike that took effect yesterday

Most people just attach photos of their installation in the thread they started. You might have to play with their format to get the size down or they will be too big to attach.

[J.P.M.]

I am not sure what others will say but I am impressed with those production numbers and $/watt installation costs for a ground mount system.

Keep us informed on the status as well as pictures of the install.

SunEagle: If inland from the coast around here, those #'s are possible with ideal orientation, and a ground mount if a bit optimistic. Not sure I'd quote that high if I was a vendor.

As some possible loose comparison: After 1,230 days of continuous operation, my array:

5.232 kW.

Total production: 30,224 kWh.

-->> 30,224/1,230 = 24.57 kWh/day average == 8,969 kWh/365 days, after about, and very approx., 3-5%, depending on time of year, annual penalty for late afternoon shading.
.
8,969/5,232 = 1,714 kWh/yr. per STC kW.

But, that's only 3+ years of history.

I saw the original post last night and decided to think on its content a while as some things just doesn't seem quite right about what it describes. A very low relative price, especially for a ground mount, a very optimistic output with what sounds like an unusually bulletproof performance warranty, and a customer who sounds, with no disrespect intended, to be more solar ignorant than most, and with more of a woodie for SDG & E than usual, those two things not being a good indicator of the best solar outcome to my experience.

But, not my house/choice/life/$$.

[J.P.M.]

I will definitely post installation pictures -- is there a better forum area for install pictures, or should I just post pictures here in this thread?

Installation will likely be in the next 3 to 6 weeks, but the sooner the better given the yet again SDGE rate hike that took effect yesterday

I was just looking through the SDG & E page that lists current effective and pending tariffs. I couldn't find one that takes effect 03/01/2017. Can you provide your source ?

Thank you.

[CharlieEscCA]

I was just looking through the SDG & E page that lists current effective and pending tariffs. I couldn't find one that takes effect 03/01/2017. Can you provide your source ?

Thank you.

Actually, I guess the rate increase happened 1/1/2017 (see http://regarchive.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/E...-SCHEDS_DR.pdf). I had been led to believe that this was on hold until March 1.

[tyab]

I thought that was a low price for ground mount given the trenching unknowns for that distance. Of course in that area one could have nice mostly flat land with great soil or be on a hillside with nightmare ground conditions.

I went back and looked at that GroundTrac product - I remember researching it for my ground mount but rejected it since it can't do 5 high rows. They really hold the cost down by using 1-1/2" schedule 40 pipe in 12" diameter holes and lighter weight rails that are field drilled.

[CharlieEscCA]

SunEagle: If inland from the coast around here, those #'s are possible with ideal orientation, and a ground mount if a bit optimistic. Not sure I'd quote that high if I was a vendor.

As some possible loose comparison: After 1,230 days of continuous operation, my array:

5.232 kW.

Total production: 30,224 kWh.

-->> 30,224/1,230 = 24.57 kWh/day average == 8,969 kWh/365 days, after about, and very approx., 3-5%, depending on time of year, annual penalty for late afternoon shading.
.
8,969/5,232 = 1,714 kWh/yr. per STC kW.

But, that's only 3+ years of history.

I saw the original post last night and decided to think on its content a while as some things just doesn't seem quite right about what it describes. A very low relative price, especially for a ground mount, a very optimistic output with what sounds like an unusually bulletproof performance warranty, and a customer who sounds, with no disrespect intended, to be more solar ignorant than most, and with more of a woodie for SDG & E than usual, those two things not being a good indicator of the best solar outcome to my experience.

But, not my house/choice/life/$$.

Good morning, J.P.M.

LOL, more solar ignorant than most -- maybe partly true, but I tend to believe not. But doesn't really matter.

Yep, it is indeed a good price and took some good negotiating work on my part, which from other posts by you I believe you would encourage that.

I was surprised by the performance guarantee being offered -- it was on a separate handout when the proposal was initially given to me in December 2016 (at a higher price). After negotiating the new price, the draft contract presented to me did not explicitly call out the production guarantee. I discussed this with the company, and made clear that unless this was in the contract I was signing, it didn't exist. It was added to the contract.

The stated production numbers are perhaps optimistic, but it's not really my problem at this point. The numbers do line up with PVwatts, and based on many reports that often people exceed PVwatts values, the actual productiom likely will be close if not at that value. But again, not my issue.

Having priced out this equipment for a self install, there's still a profit to be made for the installer.

I did my due diligence -- checking other ground mount installs by this company (which has done hundreds of ground mounts in north San Diego county). I am fully confident that the install will not be shoddy as a result of the contracted price.

I'm certainly not a solar expert, but I am far from a babe in the woods.

Now, the only valid naive criticism might be the sizing of this system -- my annual use has been in the 10K to 10.5K kWh, but this is with rarely running the A/C, and setting the thermostat to between 81 and 83 degrees when we do -- just take the edge off, and then open windows again after the sun goes down and outside temp is equal to inside temp.Needless to say, this leads to an unhappy wife when I get home from work. Just using the $ paid on last years bills, payback is 5.5 years.But, I'm confident that I now have the headroom to run the A/C more often and at a lower thermostat setting. There was no way for me to estimate how much more kWh I needed, but if I way over did it, then my next vehicle may be an EV or hybrid.

I've got the 15 minute data from SDGE, and be doing spreadsheets over the next couple of weeks to decide if I want to take the TOU rate plan now, or wait until it's forced on me. I suspect TOU is a plus for solar (until they move the peak periods which as you and others have noted likely will occur over time).

So in summary, perhaps I've left some $ on the table by my system size, but the system size also contributed to being able to get the price to 2.83 per watt as there are lots of fixed costs of my install that are helped by the low incremental costs of the panels and optimizer (panels are likely ($0.50 per watt or lower, and the optimizer for the 72 cell panel is $60 or lower).

[SunEagle]

SunEagle: If inland from the coast around here, those #'s are possible with ideal orientation, and a ground mount if a bit optimistic. Not sure I'd quote that high if I was a vendor.

As some possible loose comparison: After 1,230 days of continuous operation, my array:

5.232 kW.

Total production: 30,224 kWh.

-->> 30,224/1,230 = 24.57 kWh/day average == 8,969 kWh/365 days, after about, and very approx., 3-5%, depending on time of year, annual penalty for late afternoon shading.
.
8,969/5,232 = 1,714 kWh/yr. per STC kW.

But, that's only 3+ years of history.

I saw the original post last night and decided to think on its content a while as some things just doesn't seem quite right about what it describes. A very low relative price, especially for a ground mount, a very optimistic output with what sounds like an unusually bulletproof performance warranty, and a customer who sounds, with no disrespect intended, to be more solar ignorant than most, and with more of a woodie for SDG & E than usual, those two things not being a good indicator of the best solar outcome to my experience.

But, not my house/choice/life/$$.

Well while optimistic I thought both the price of $2.83/watt before the FED rebate and 1.73kwh/watt per year production was pretty good for a ground mount in San Diego. Hopefully both are true numbers and not false advertising.

[CharlieEscCA]

I thought that was a low price for ground mount given the trenching unknowns for that distance. Of course in that area one could have nice mostly flat land with great soil or be on a hillside with nightmare ground conditions.

I went back and looked at that GroundTrac product - I remember researching it for my ground mount but rejected it since it can't do 5 high rows. They really hold the cost down by using 1-1/2" schedule 40 pipe in 12" diameter holes and lighter weight rails that are field drilled.

I'm on an acre, so have room for the ground mount. No crazy hills, but it is DG.

I'll be 4 high by 6 wide in landscape mode. To go four high, it will be the 168" rails, which are the 3" heavy duty rails. Yes, the pipes are 1 1/2", but they have to be at 8' max spacing. And their system is rated for 110 mph, so I'm not going to lose too much sleep.

[sensij]

Actually, I guess the rate increase happened 1/1/2017 (see http://regarchive.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/E...-SCHEDS_DR.pdf). I had been led to believe that this was on hold until March 1.

The rate increase happened in a couple steps. I got an email from SDG&E a few days ago with this graphic:
Rate change.JPG


Using their choice of dates, for schedule DR, baseline Winter/Summer, >130% of baseline Winter/Summer
8/1/16 - 0.17589 / 0.19174, 0.36273 / 0.39542 (AL 2917-E)
1/1/17 - 0.18867 / 0.20452, 0.38909 / 0.42178 (AL 3028-E)
3/1/17 - 0.19252 / 0.20837, 0.39701 / 0.42970 (AL 3034-E)

Something around a 9% increase, no matter how you slice it. Don't forget that baselines were also decreased on July 1, 2016, just before the rate increases they are indicating, although they've been untouched since then. Coastal baseline, for example, went from 9.6 / 10.1 summer/winter to 9.0 / 9.2 summer / winter at that time.

[CharlieEscCA]

The rate increase happened in a couple steps. I got an email from SDG&E a few days ago with this graphic:
Rate change.JPG


Using their choice of dates, for schedule DR, baseline Winter/Summer, >130% of baseline Winter/Summer
8/1/16 - 0.17589 / 0.19174, 0.36273 / 0.39542 (AL 2917-E)
1/1/17 - 0.18867 / 0.20452, 0.38909 / 0.42178 (AL 3028-E)
3/1/17 - 0.19252 / 0.20837, 0.39701 / 0.42970 (AL 3034-E)

Something around a 9% increase, no matter how you slice it. Don't forget that baselines were also decreased on July 1, 2016, just before the rate increases they are indicating, although they've been untouched since then. Coastal baseline, for example, went from 9.6 / 10.1 summer/winter to 9.0 / 9.2 summer / winter at that time.

Those sure are crazy rates that sure incentivise one to go solar if they can swing the initial investment and are staying in a house for five or more years.