Need Help Deciding. Thanks in advance.

[J.P.M.]

JPM> Your suggestion has been respectfully taken and I purchased a copy from Barnes and Noble online last night. Thank you.

ButchDeal, I apologize as I didn't see your second post. I must have just scrolled past it without noticing. The other southward facing roof is actually much larger and also not visible from the street. However, that roof line would have serious shading issues as it is right next to a row of 40ft tall or more cypress trees that belong to the neighbor. Where as the garage is far from those trees and is where my main panel is located making it an easier install. So it has been deemed as the best and most productive spot in the eyes of the various installers who have looked at the house.

On a side note, I did have another bid come through on the SunPower system and it is as follows:
5.02 kw system with the 335's or 5.18 kw on the 345's
15 X-21 335 or 345 panels (my choice, same price)
Sun Power Equinox Micros or SMA TL inverter
Invisi-Rack mounting
Quick PV roof mounts with 3 course tar or bibbing, my choice
225 Square D or Milbank main panel upgrade
$20,000 Pre-Incentive

Works out to:
$4.00 per watt on the 335 all black panels
or
$3.86 per watt on the 345's

One more respectful suggestion: don't sign anything until you read the book.

On Sunpower stuff, I've got a rule of thumb: If a Sunpower array is less than 5 % per STC Watt more than the lowest bid for approximate equal size array, inverters, mounting and extras, the Sumpower system is, in my book, equally cost effective over the long run (with long run being, for me, 12 years), buit abobe that, it ain't.

Just make sure you get what you pay for and check the actual nameplate on any panels that wind up in your driveway. I've caught two deceptive swaps, by different vendors, both with Sunpower panels, but that was some years ago. 240 Watt panels were sold and on the contracts, one was 220 Watts and the other was 215 Watts. The 215 Watt "mistake" was the guy next door to me.

Read any contract carefully. Very carefully.

BTW, I still think the LG price you have is too high compared to other sources for LG systems, but NOMB.

[barron]

JPM, do you think that area is causing the wide variety in system quotes? It seems that the $3.25-3.60 range has been unattainable for me in my particular area. No matter the company and how many times we've gone back and forth, all my bids show up in the high $3 range ($3.80 - 4.00). I've now had almost ten different bids, and every single bid that has included a main panel upgrade, and the roof sealing that I desire is in that upper echelon of pricing (LG, Sun Power, Solar World, etc...).

[J.P.M.]

JPM, do you think that area is causing the wide variety in system quotes? It seems that the $3.25-3.60 range has been unattainable for me in my particular area. No matter the company and how many times we've gone back and forth, all my bids show up in the high $3 range ($3.80 - 4.00). I've now had almost ten different bids, and every single bid that has included a main panel upgrade, and the roof sealing that I desire is in that upper echelon of pricing (LG, Sun Power, Solar World, etc...).

If you are in CA, check something called the CSI database. Spend a few minutes, or more reading and learning how to use the vast amount of info it contains. Sort by zip, or any of number of other parameters - vendor, equipment, orientation, array size, etc. It can be a real eye opener for those who take the time and learn how to use it.

Be careful to note and adjust the CSI per Watt price listed, and calc your own by dividing total price by total STC Watt system size. The CSI price is in A.C. Watts. Using that price will inflate the price from want the commonly used method will give you and maybe lull you into thinking the deal you're getting is better than it is because it's being compared to a price calc'ed by a different method.

If you're having additional work done, adjust your per Watt price to exclude that work in any comparisons.

On prices : How good are your negotiating skills. After you spend some time w/the database, one thing that becomes obvious is how much and how often prices for what appears to be pretty similar systems and equipment in the same area and often with the same vendor can vary - by quite a bit. I can't imagine all that difference is attributable to new electrical panels, roof work, or difficult arrangements on highly sloped roof, for example.

Being the guy in my HOA that reviews and recommends approval to the HOA Arch. Rev. Comm. for all solar installs, I've had further confirmation of my suspicions about how gullible most folks are, and how poor, or non existent, their negotiating skills are by watching well over 100 installs and then have those my neighbors telling me how happy they are with what I know to be overpriced systems of varying quality, with price being a rather poor indicator of that quality, and with those prices being all over the board. I see the contracts.

Also, and as mentioned above, sharing pricing information with vendors is usually not the best way to get a sharp price. I know that from being a peddler in a prior life and now see it confirmed among my neighbors who are clueless or who naively think they're being slick.

[barron]

JPM, I've been searching around the CSI database, but the only flaw is that there does not seem to be any way to know what all was done as part of the jobs listed (roof repairs, more complex, steep slope, multi plane installs, conduit attic runs, etc).

I will note that I've had a couple of bids come through in the $3.40 - $3.60 range, but have very little confidence in those two installers. The $3.40 bid was for Panasonic 330's and the $3.60 is for LG 320's. None of the installers (local mid sized) have been in that range. My favorite installer (my first one I told you about) is down to $3.70 for the LG neon 320's, attic run conduit, quick pv mount with three course tar and bibbing as requested by me, new main panel, and a car charger install. My other well liked installer is at $3.99 for Sunpower Equinox or SMA, but at this point I'm not seeing the point in paying extra for it.

[cebury]

Exactly about the csi and costs. I had roof work done, main panel upgrade, and extra work done and they entered the total contract price into CSI. I also found one vendor had most of their costs missing (cost became optional after the rebate program rapped out), but had two installs at a great price. Called them up and they were no where near that pricing, one of my more expensive quotes. I assume it was a 'favor' job or some other inside pricing.

[J.P.M.]

JPM, I've been searching around the CSI database, but the only flaw is that there does not seem to be any way to know what all was done as part of the jobs listed (roof repairs, more complex, steep slope, multi plane installs, conduit attic runs, etc).

I will note that I've had a couple of bids come through in the $3.40 - $3.60 range, but have very little confidence in those two installers. The $3.40 bid was for Panasonic 330's and the $3.60 is for LG 320's. None of the installers (local mid sized) have been in that range. My favorite installer (my first one I told you about) is down to $3.70 for the LG neon 320's, attic run conduit, quick pv mount with three course tar and bibbing as requested by me, new main panel, and a car charger install. My other well liked installer is at $3.99 for Sunpower Equinox or SMA, but at this point I'm not seeing the point in paying extra for it.

I'd be careful that I was comparing apples to apples and that you have ALL the work , CLEARLY in writing , ON THE QUOTES.

As long as you've got confidence in the installer, $3.70/Watt for the LG system with a panel changeout and a charger install is probably a competitive price.

On the CSI info - pretty slick huh ? But, you are correct, there is no way to be sure what extra work, if any, is covered. My limited experience is that a lot of jobs, SWAG of maybe something like 3/4 - 90% or so, don't have much of anything else in them except the PV system.

All that said, all the implied or unsaid concern about first cost is a bit of a red herring. The biggest concern during bid evaluation and selection, after a safe install, ought to be system cost based on most long term bang for the buck, which is way different than low initial price.

A few extra pennies/Watt spent on a quality vendor for quality components installed in a professional way by an outfit that's been around long before solar and looks to have a good chance at being around after solar disappears is money well spent. That, and a lot of due diligence by the homeowner both before and after contract signing and through commissioning are the two best insurance policies to a long lasting and fit for purpose installation.

[barron]

JPM, that's actually an area I'm quite comfortable with. Furthermore, that is one thing I really appreciate in the LG bid I mentioned above as compared to the others. All items are listed plain as day as separate line items. (listed as 1, 2, 3, 4 ,5, etc).... In terms of future company sustainability, I also lean towards them as they've been doing this since 2003 and have gone through a few economic storms.

On CSI, yeah it's pretty sweet once you really start digging through it. I also filtered the data by the specific installers I was looking at. It was comforting to see how many installs they've each done, and for how much they were done for. I assume there are a few family / friends / limited disclosed costs as there are some ridiculous low cost installs.

[J.P.M.]

JPM, that's actually an area I'm quite comfortable with. Furthermore, that is one thing I really appreciate in the LG bid I mentioned above as compared to the others. All items are listed plain as day as separate line items. (listed as 1, 2, 3, 4 ,5, etc).... In terms of future company sustainability, I also lean towards them as they've been doing this since 2003 and have gone through a few economic storms.

On CSI, yeah it's pretty sweet once you really start digging through it. I also filtered the data by the specific installers I was looking at. It was comforting to see how many installs they've each done, and for how much they were done for. I assume there are a few family / friends / limited disclosed costs as there are some ridiculous low cost installs.

Understood.
I've had fun digging through the CSI data and finding all the jobs in my HOA that I've reviewed for the arch. rev. comm. FWIW, so far, for well over 100 jobs, most all the data has agreed with what was sold, especially, and notably, the contract prices listed on the CSI data have always agreed with the contract prices I've seen, and I've seen every one of the contract prices in my HOA's installs, contract revs. included.

On the family/friends thing, I've noticed that a few installs on the CSI data (not in my HOA) were VERY inexpensive. On further looking/snooping, I figured out/guessed that the vendor was also the customer. I'm sure there are unusual situations that pop up every now/then. Viewer discretion is probably well advised.

Good luck. Trust, but verify.

[barron]

JPM and all others willing to help, I could use your help in my final decision:

Installer has been pretty much decided and I have a couple questions as to which you system you would pick for your own home.

Installer is now offering the following:

System A:
5.12 kW System
16 LG 320 Neon 2 Panels
My choice of SMA 5000 TL w/secure plug, Enphase S280's, or Solar Edge with optimizers

System B:
5.28 kW System
16 Panasonic 330 HIT panels
My choice of SMA 5000 TL w/secure plug, Enphase S280's, or Solar Edge with optimizers


Same price for either system. Not same per watt, but same overall price (making the Panasonic cheaper on a per watt basis).

Thanks again for your help

[ButchDeal]

The LG is relying on light from the back side to get those numbers. On a good tilted frame that would help some but on a roof, not so much. Thus the Panasonics will outperform watt for watt and you get a few more watts with the panasonic.
I would put the inverter choice in the order of SolarEdge, SMA, Enphase.

[J.P.M.]

The LG is relying on light from the back side to get those numbers. On a good tilted frame that would help some but on a roof, not so much. Thus the Panasonics will outperform watt for watt and you get a few more watts with the panasonic.
I would put the inverter choice in the order of SolarEdge, SMA, Enphase.

While I generally agree that the Panasonic might be a slightly better choice for the same price, I was under the impression the LG claim, if their advert. blurb is to be believed, or at least construed in a particular way, is that light is reflected from the interior side of the backside of the panel on to the backside of the cells, that is, the reflected light they're referring to is not albedo entering the back of the panel, but rather light that somehow makes it through or around the cell and then gets bounced off the interior side of the back of the panel somehow and makes it to the backside of the cell. If so, no benefit or particular penalty would be associated with back reflected irradiance on to such a panel. I can't recall what the backside of such a panel looks like, but I suspect it isn't clear, or that translucent.

Any thoughts on the correctness or ignorance of my thinking on this with respect to the LG claims ?

[CharlieEscCA]

While I generally agree that the Panasonic might be a slightly better choice for the same price, I was under the impression the LG claim, if their advert. blurb is to be believed, or at least construed in a particular way, is that light is reflected from the interior side of the backside of the panel on to the backside of the cells, that is, the reflected light they're referring to is not albedo entering the back of the panel, but rather light that somehow makes it through or around the cell and then gets bounced off the interior side of the back of the panel somehow and makes it to the backside of the cell. If so, no benefit or particular penalty would be associated with back reflected irradiance on to such a panel. I can't recall what the backside of such a panel looks like, but I suspect it isn't clear, or that translucent.

Any thoughts on the correctness or ignorance of my thinking on this with respect to the LG claims ?

That's the exact way I take it too. Note that the "current" Q.Cells claim (more or less) the same feature.

[solar pete]

I would go with option B, Panasonic panels with SMA inverter, cheers.

[barron]

Thanks everyone for the help. I'm going to make a final decision by Monday and will let you all know which way we go.

[barron]

Just wanted to follow up and let everyone know that the installer that I selected (decided on Panasonic & SMA) might have developed some heart burn over all the things promised in the bid. They seem to taking issue with the lapped felt / bibbing method and really want to go back to 3 course tar only. If they continue to seem apprehensive about it all, I'll just go with the other reputable installer.