Need Help Deciding. Thanks in advance.

[barron]

Hello all,

I have been researching and studying to learn all I can in order to make an educated decision on solar for our family home. We have been looking at an approximately 5kW system and have narrowed down our choices to two. Please let me know your thoughts and suggestions. (16 panels is the largest system we can handle while staying on the desired roof plane).

Quote #1:
5.12 kW system
16 LG Neon 2 320 Panels
My choice of SMA TL Inverter or Solar Edge (upgraded to panel by panel monitoring if I choose Solar Edge, but installer recommends SMA over Solar Edge).
225 Square D main panel upgrade
Quick PV mounting system
Factory extended warranty for either SMA or Solar Edge
$19,900 (pre incentive)

Quote #2:
5.02 kW system
15 Sun Power X-21 335 Black or 345 series (same price)
Complete Equinox system or SMA TL (my choice) (installer recommends equinox with Sun Power Micros over SMA)
225 Square D main panel upgrade
Invisi Mount racking
Quick PV mounts
$21,200 (pre incentive)

I feel confident either company would do a great job.

Southern California Install.

Thanks

[ButchDeal]

Do you have any shadows on this roof face?
Have you considered Panasonic 330 modules?

[barron]

To be honest I have not looked all that much into Panasonic panels. I found there to not be very many installers in my area that had used them as compared to LG. Seems like a lot of the installers in my particular area are wed to sun power or LG. I do see / and have spoke to some Solar world installers, but I didn't care for the particular companies I dealt with.

As far as shading I have none what so ever. The closest trees are some really tall cypress trees about 100ft west of the roof plane in question.

[J.P.M.]

Sunpower is good stuff, but usually overpriced for what you get and what will do the job as well. In this case, looks to me like the LG is a bit more than others have found ( ~ $3.25-3.50/Watt) and the SP is less than others have been quoted (~ $4.30 - 4.75/Watt). Did you share pricing with the competing vendors ?

Have you determined what your annual usage is ? Do you know that it's more cost effective to reduce usage before considering an expensive PV addition ?

[solarix]

California dealers seems to like the most expensive panels they can find. Solar PV panels are inherently reliable and the good value panels have just as good of durability as the expensive ones. Try to quotes on brands such as Canadian Solar, Q-cellls, Hyundai, or Trina. You won't be sorry. If you are constrained on roof space - maybe it is justified to go with the $$$ high efficiency panels, but otherwise not...

[J.P.M.]

California dealers seems to like the most expensive panels they can find. Solar PV panels are inherently reliable and the good value panels have just as good of durability as the expensive ones. Try to quotes on brands such as Canadian Solar, Q-cellls, Hyundai, or Trina. You won't be sorry. If you are constrained on roof space - maybe it is justified to go with the $$$ high efficiency panels, but otherwise not...

Every time I read limited roof space as what looks like sort of a blanket and bulletproof justification for what are probably less cost effective Sunpower panels, I wonder why no one ever mentions the idea of investigating whether spending a few more $$ on conservation measures that will lower the usage and thus allow the less expensive but less area efficient panels to meet the new (lower) load.

Less spent on PV and a lower load for the same or less total $$ spent.

[solar pete]

My first impression is I like company 1 the most, as I prefer there inverter option. I also agree with solarrix, get them to quote you on another brand of panel I like Canadian but all brands mentioned by solarrix are good.

The way solar installers buy panels really determines what they recommend. To get better pricing you need to buy containers at a time, so you really want to move what you have and are going to be able to offer very good deals to you customers. So while an installer can get any panel you want the cost's will be all over the place.

[barron]

Thank you all for the responses thus far.

J.P.M: I price shared with both vendors after they submitted their original and one revised bid. Both vendors have since re-quoted knowing the other vendors price point, and thus ending up at the price listed in the OP. We purchased this house back in November 2016 and have full monthly usages for November, December, January, and through today. My wife and I also owned a home about two miles from where we are now for almost 4 years (giving us a good idea of usage). Our usage over the last 4 years led to a twelve month average bill of around $130. The new house thus far has averaged 30-40% more usage each months (bigger home with a pool). We are very consciences of our usage. All lights are LED, we turn off every light when not in a room, have a variable speed pool pump, and are conservative with AC / Heat usage. We have lowered our usage to essentially as little as it'll get (without being uncomfortable in our own home)

Solarix: The reason I wanted these higher wattage panels is that I refuse to place any panels over the living area for aesthetics. Thus leaving me with only the garage to place panels on while still not being frontage visible. This self imposed rule has limited me to 15 or 16 panels; and quotes by the likes of Trina and others placed me at a higher number of panels than what my available roof plane will allow.


What do you folks think of the micro inverter set up that Sun Power (bid #2) is offering? Seems like there isn't much data on Sun Power "branded" micro-inverters? I lean more towards the SMA for a proven track record and physically less parts then 15 micro inverters. Of the 6 different installers I've spoken to, not one has spoke more preferentially to micros vs string.

Thanks again everyone.

[ButchDeal]

Solarix: The reason I wanted these higher wattage panels is that I refuse to place any panels over the living area for aesthetics. Thus leaving me with only the garage to place panels on while still not being frontage visible.

It sounds like more than aesthetics. if your garage has a non-frontage roof, doesn't the main house (living area?)

[J.P.M.]

When I was a peddler, one of my goals was to get as much information on what my competition was quoting and what they were charging for that equipment as I could wring/beg/get the customer to reveal. Sharp purchasing people would never reveal the lowest bid they had, or any bid pricing for that matter. They knew that if they did reveal it, I, or any other bidder with the same information, would never have any need to go more than one red cent lower than the lowest price we saw and believed. They ( the customer) therefore knew that revealing prices would result in no benefit to them. We (the sharp vendors) all pretty much knew where we had to be most of the time anyway, based on our costs (the price floor), within some usually narrow margin, but the customer usually did not. What the vendors usually didn't know was how close the other vendors were to that price floor unless we were all dealing with a stupid purchasing agent who was lazy and/or didn't know how the game was run and shared prices. We had some ideas on competitors' prices, but nothing sure, so we needed to take our best shot and play up our unique advantages.

Seems to me solar vendors and their customers are in sort of the same and pretty common situation. One indication of shared prices can be when prices that are normally farther apart , such as, say LG at $3.25/Watt and Sunpower at, say, $4.35/Watt, get a whole lot closer together - as in $3.89/Watt vs. $4.10/Watt for your bids. Without knowing the particulars of your situation it seems like your LG guy may have seen a chance to make a buck or two more off you than those who paid the lower common price of ~ %3.25 - $3.50/Watt for LG and took it, and SP guy dropped his pants some, but not a lot. That's why I wondered if you shared prices. The narrow spread looked un usual and possibly indicative of shared prices.

There is no particular advantage to Sunpower equipment. Those who own it have good stuff, but in terms of bang for the buck, LG, Canadian Solar or any number of other panel mfgs. put out a product that's as fit for service and equal quality to Sunpower stuff for less $$. Beyond some basic quality level, solar panels have pretty much become a commodity - Sunpower stuff as well. Part of their extra price covers all their slick, B.S. advertising.

NOMB or concern, but I'd get more bids and keep my mouth shut about vendors prices and look for something closer to $3.00/Watt without squeezing the new vendors so hard they feel a need and justification to skimp on quality, which job quality, BTW, is WAY more important than a few pennies/Watt in initial price. .

BTW, and sort of off topic, but maybe useful: One thing about dealing with customers who revealed prices: Once the vendors knew a customer snitched and shared prices, prices to that customer usually wound up being higher for ongoing business. Vendors do know one another and word does get around somehow. I'm not saying it's price fixing - it's just business.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[barron]

One thing I would note that is that no prices were shared until they bid and then re-bid. After their second bid is when I shared and in retro spect should not have.

Do the bids you reference at the $3.00 point include main panel upgrade and the rapid disconnect for NEC 2014? Most of the bids I got in that territory did not include either which brings the cost to basically the same. Also, some of the others had less costly roof mounts than the quick pv system done with 3 course tar and bibbing over the tar (my selection).

I'm up to six bids from reputable dealers as of this morning and 4 of the 6 are unaware of the other bids and are all very close on price for LG, and one low sunpower bid which is listed above (low compared to other sunpower dealers who quoted).

[J.P.M.]

One thing I would note that is that no prices were shared until they bid and then re-bid. After their second bid is when I shared and in retro spect should not have.

Do the bids you reference at the $3.00 point include main panel upgrade and the rapid disconnect for NEC 2014? Most of the bids I got in that territory did not include either which brings the cost to basically the same. Also, some of the others had less costly roof mounts than the quick pv system done with 3 course tar and bibbing over the tar (my selection).

I'm up to six bids from reputable dealers as of this morning and 4 of the 6 are unaware of the other bids and are all very close on price for LG, and one low sunpower bid which is listed above (low compared to other sunpower dealers who quoted).

That $3.00/Watt is what I'd shoot for, and while probably not likely, You'll stand a better chance of getting there if you aim low.

Depending a lot on the situation, panel upgrades seem to be running at ~ $1500 - $2K around here with a lot of variation, based on what's in place, what's required, customer savvy and negotiating skills. All in all, I'd be doubtful if such things would add $4 - $5 K to a total price, but I'm not on site. Double flashing, which is at least as costly as the methods you've been quoted can be had for a sharp price. I've seen good jobs w/ double flashing for $3.50/Watt.

While you're at it, and if you haven't done so already, get your roof inspected and serviced as necessary. PV systems last a long time. Give the roof under it a chance at lasting as long. What looks now like an unnecessary expense, is actually cheap insurance you will not regret taking out.

[barron]

The roof is in good shape. It's 6 years old from last replacement. As far as flashing it is still double flashed as you mention. It'll be the existing paper, mount, flashing, tar fabric and second coat tar, papering over that (bibbing), and adding the secondary aluminum flashing above the tile. Basically our normal flashing method that I do for roof jacks with an added mastic layer.

On on a side note, I finally got someone to bid Panasonic panels and they ended up more than the LG panels. So I'm tossing that one out. Spoke with another LG and Sunpower dealer today, and the two bids were within $.05 per watt of what I have, while not liking the rep very much. I guess we'll continue to price out systems, and see what we can end up getting the two bids listed above down to (however, I do believe the sunpower bid to be about as low as it'll get). Maybe the LG bidder will drop again.

[J.P.M.]

A respectful suggestion: If you have not done so yet, download "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", a free net download. An updated hardcopy is about #25 or so. Even though a bit dated, the net version has the right price, and most of the info is still good stuff and correct. Reading it will give you info that'll be useful and help ask perhaps better questions of the vendors.

[barron]

JPM> Your suggestion has been respectfully taken and I purchased a copy from Barnes and Noble online last night. Thank you.

ButchDeal, I apologize as I didn't see your second post. I must have just scrolled past it without noticing. The other southward facing roof is actually much larger and also not visible from the street. However, that roof line would have serious shading issues as it is right next to a row of 40ft tall or more cypress trees that belong to the neighbor. Where as the garage is far from those trees and is where my main panel is located making it an easier install. So it has been deemed as the best and most productive spot in the eyes of the various installers who have looked at the house.

On a side note, I did have another bid come through on the SunPower system and it is as follows:
5.02 kw system with the 335's or 5.18 kw on the 345's
15 X-21 335 or 345 panels (my choice, same price)
Sun Power Equinox Micros or SMA TL inverter
Invisi-Rack mounting
Quick PV roof mounts with 3 course tar or bibbing, my choice
225 Square D or Milbank main panel upgrade
$20,000 Pre-Incentive

Works out to:
$4.00 per watt on the 335 all black panels
or
$3.86 per watt on the 345's