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  • Tinker Time; a new garden / guest house

    Hi Guys,
    Just joined the Forum and wanted to share & question stuff about Solar Panel setup

    See below the progress of a small garden house, hopefully i can make it self self-sufficient except for the Air-conditioning and 1 or 2 wall sockets

    IMG20161128120616.jpg IMG20161128120557.jpg

    ..

    I bought the following stuff already;

    1. Solar Panel (4 piece) 100W / 18.5V - 21.5V / 5.5A-6.2A
    2. MC4 Solar Panel Connector used for Solar Cable
    3. 45A MPPT Solar charge controller with LCD dispaly 12V 24V 36V 48V solar panel battery charger
    4. MP-3500 twisted blade sewage pumping septic sewer toilet without clogging sewage pumps garbage
    5. High Head Brushless DC water pump 12V/24v with Flow switch
    6. DC12V-24V 4A/ch Wall Type Touch Panel Dimmer Controller Wall Switch Ring For 3528 5050 Single Color LED Strip LED light
    7. 25W 42 inch 12V DC big scale Ceiling fan,1050mm 12v fan,powerful 12v dc ceiling fan,solar fan
    8. Downlight bathroom GU10/MR16 fitting ceiling spot lights IP65 & LED Spotlight MR16 12V Aluminum Led Lamp 3W-15W Led Spot Light Bulb


    Now it is time to install the 8 LED Downlights & Electrical Cables Diameter 2,5 mm ( red & black colour) into the Gazebo structure, coz the little house will be on top of this....

    Andre
    Last edited by BP6666VR; 11-28-2016, 05:00 AM.

  • #2
    Not sure what you are asking. If you sized your PV to match the loads, you offset whatever you don't consume on site.
    But I see an odd mix of gear: 4, small PV panels and Charge Controllers, but no inverter or batteries ?

    In a guest house, you are nearly certain of early battery death from abuse by guests who don't know how to turn a switch off.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
      Not sure what you are asking. If you sized your PV to match the loads, you offset whatever you don't consume on site.
      But I see an odd mix of gear: 4, small PV panels and Charge Controllers, but no inverter or batteries ?

      In a guest house, you are nearly certain of early battery death from abuse by guests who don't know how to turn a switch off.
      Hi Mike thanks for your reply,
      I am new at this, and it seems a nice hobby to start / continue.

      The batteries are coming, they are second-hand TROJAN 6 volts, I still have to pick them up, apparently they are SUPER heavy (from a yacht) 3 piece. They are sealed gel @ 80Ah each so total 240 Ah ( i can always buy more TROJAN 6V 225 AH where i live ) man these batteries are expensive USD 207 per piece. I could order 2 of these new TROJAN 6V 225 AH that would give me in total 5 batteries.

      So to power a small house / garden you need more then 4 Solar Panels ? if so I just buy 4 more .... so 8 in total ? What do you think ?

      By inverter you mean to get 220Volt into the house ? Guess better I buy a ""5000W Air Conditioner Inverter Peak power 10000W Factory direct pure sine wave inverter 5000W 48V turn 220V home inverter"" https://www.aliexpress.com/item/5000...ddresstype=600

      GOOD POINT for switching off stuff, let me explain "guests" it will be only Family, and my Parents.

      The Charge Controller is hopefully "oversized" for future expansion.
      https://www.aliexpress.com/item/45A-...608.0.0.hW65U2

      it has outlets for 12V-24V-36V-48V so i will use 12 & 24 volt first, then I can always elaborate the system to garden lights, and even house lights.

      i used the cable calculator , a bit confusing to say the least // Solar Panel (4 or 8 piece) 100W / 18.5V - 21.5V / 5.5A-6.2A
      For the LED lights / Macerator / Water pumps i will use. so RED & BLACK both has to be Diameter 4,5 or 6,5 mm thick wires ? hope that is correct ? That seems a bit excessive ?

      So if you connect 4 or 8 solar panels together you will need a "combiner" or can all solar panels just straight connect to the "Solar Charge Controller" ? I never heard of a "combiner"

      I have until now not a clew about most stuff, but with all this website good info I will figure it out

      Hope to not have asked to many stupid questions.... but i started this Solar House, and I will build a lot more ...

      Thanks, Andre

      Comment


      • #4
        Whouw, I wrote this really detailed answer and it states "Unapproved"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
          Not sure what you are asking. If you sized your PV to match the loads, you offset whatever you don't consume on site.
          But I see an odd mix of gear: 4, small PV panels and Charge Controllers, but no inverter or batteries ?

          In a guest house, you are nearly certain of early battery death from abuse by guests who don't know how to turn a switch off.
          OK all that info I wrote is "gone" so I try to remember it all AGAIN, ha ha

          INVERTER = i was thinking about the following = 5000W Air Conditioner Inverter Peak power 10000W Factory direct pure sine wave inverter 5000W 48V turn 220V home Inverter

          Solar Panels = So do you think I need in total 8 piece of 100W / 18.5V - 21.5V / 5.5A-6.2A ( so i have 4 already, but I can buy 4 more )
          So if you connect 4 or 8 solar panels together then i read you need a "combiner" i still dont know what that is ?

          Charge Controller = i hope it is "oversized" so i can expand / 45A MPPT Solar charge controller with LCD dispaly 12V 24V 36V 48V solar panel battery charger

          Batteries = i will get 3 piece second hand They sealed gel @ 80Ah each so will give 240 Ah // also I found here NEW 6V / 225 AH for U$D 207 per piece so how many batteries I need?

          RED & BLACK wire size = i used the "wire size" program on the internet and it seems I need 4,5mm or 6,5mm Diameter electrical wires, that seems a bit BIG ? for small LED lights ? so the whole system is only using Red & Black wires ?

          GOOD POINT, switch off = but the guests will only be family who visit ...

          Andre

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi , your post will be sent for moderation if they have links in them, we dont like links...sometime we tolerate them if they are relevant. Oh its a good idea not to mix old and new batteries, the old ones quickly damage the new ones

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by solar pete View Post
              Hi , your post will be sent for moderation if they have links in them, we dont like links...sometime we tolerate them if they are relevant. Oh its a good idea not to mix old and new batteries, the old ones quickly damage the new ones
              Ha dully noted, sorry about the "links" wont happen again.

              Good info on the Old & New batteries, (of course I didn't know that) I will bring the batteries to a "battery doctor" (yes don't joke about that, that's the shop name) and he can measure with a very expensive machine the 3 piece second hand sealed gel @ 80Ah .... coz 207 USD per new battery is quite expensive ....

              Andre

              Comment


              • #8
                Gosh - second hand gels? PASS, even if they are Trojan.

                Gels are frequently abused and misunderstood, especially today, since they are trying to compete with agm. They are frequently charged at too high a voltage. In fact, even Trojan's quick-start guide shows them charging at 2.4v per cell. Guess what? That's the same voltage you charge agm's with! Sounds super-convenient right?? WRONG.

                All that means is that you'll be buying new gels much sooner than expected.

                In fact, ask your distributor or doctor or whoever, to show you the cycle life of a gel based upon a 2.4v charge vs the ORIGINALLY designed 2.35v (or lower like 2.3v) charge. Seems like small beans, but it means a LOT.

                But here is the major problem especially with daily-discharge solar: To get the benefits of gel's cycle-life capability, you don't charge at high voltages (2.35v MAX) which means a LONG time in absorb, and 6 hours or so of float to fully recover. There is NO WAY you will accomplish that with solar for a daily-discharge type of operation, and you'll quickly sulfate and walk down the capacity.

                Actually there IS a way around this problem - but it is a sneaky trick! Just charge them at agm-like higher voltages, and sure you'll charge them, but they won't have the cycle life you may have been promised!!

                Using GEL for solar requires the user to carefully juggle whether they want deep cycle capability vs cycle life vs proper charge techniques. Ie, one has to be on top of their game to justify them for the specific need.

                So BP, I'd heartily recommend you look into flooded, even inexpensive 6V Golf-Car types - new - as a better investment right up front.
                Last edited by PNjunction; 11-28-2016, 07:33 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
                  Gosh - second hand gels? PASS, even if they are Trojan.

                  Gels are frequently abused and misunderstood, especially today, since they are trying to compete with agm. They are frequently charged at too high a voltage. In fact, even Trojan's quick-start guide shows them charging at 2.4v per cell. Guess what? That's the same voltage you charge agm's with! Sounds super-convenient right?? WRONG.

                  All that means is that you'll be buying new gels much sooner than expected.

                  In fact, ask your distributor or doctor or whoever, to show you the cycle life of a gel based upon a 2.4v charge vs the ORIGINALLY designed 2.35v (or lower like 2.3v) charge. Seems like small beans, but it means a LOT.

                  But here is the major problem especially with daily-discharge solar: To get the benefits of gel's cycle-life capability, you don't charge at high voltages (2.35v MAX) which means a LONG time in absorb, and 6 hours or so of float to fully recover. There is NO WAY you will accomplish that with solar for a daily-discharge type of operation, and you'll quickly sulfate and walk down the capacity.

                  Actually there IS a way around this problem - but it is a sneaky trick! Just charge them at agm-like higher voltages, and sure you'll charge them, but they won't have the cycle life you may have been promised!!

                  Using GEL for solar requires the user to carefully juggle whether they want deep cycle capability vs cycle life vs proper charge techniques. Ie, one has to be on top of their game to justify them for the specific need.

                  So BP, I'd heartily recommend you look into flooded, even inexpensive 6V Golf-Car types - new - as a better investment right up front.
                  OK understood, NEW batteries it will be, the only deep cycle batteries that i can find here are;

                  1. Trojan / w/acid / 6V / 225 AH = U$D 206 per piece
                  2. Bintrac MF 1050 / 12V / 80 AH = U$D 115 per piece
                  3. N 180 / 12V / 180 AH = U$D 214 per piece

                  But batteries are on the end of my list,

                  Understanding Electric Cable Size from ( 4 or 8 ?? ) SolarPanel / Inverter / 24V pumps / 12V LED lights / etc. / etc. is a bit confusing to say the least .... and that is where I have to start now, we need to poor concrete and I read ... RED & BLACK wire size = i used the "wire size" program on the internet and it seems I need 4,5mm or 6,5mm Diameter electrical wires, that seems a bit BIG ? for small LED lights ? so the whole system is only using Red & Black wires ?

                  Thanks, Andre

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A perfect plan for failure. Nothing you have i smade to work with each other, and will not do what you want. Stop buying and start planning. Once you figure out what it will really takes, you wil have no choice but to take you rlosses and call for an electrician to wire your house up for commercial power.
                    MSEE, PE

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                      A perfect plan for failure. Nothing you have i smade to work with each other, and will not do what you want. Stop buying and start planning. Once you figure out what it will really takes, you wil have no choice but to take you rlosses and call for an electrician to wire your house up for commercial power.
                      Exultant advize .... you hav help me greaty .... ahum



                      Mike & Solar Pete & PNjunction = thank you very much with your good info you have helped me on my way,


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BP6666VR View Post
                        Whouw, I wrote this really detailed answer and it states "Unapproved"
                        we approve posts with links as fast as we are paid, - wait - the mods aren't being paid ? We get to it when we get to it, sorry for the delays,
                        Links are generally OK as long as you are not selling or linking to sites that compete with our Host site here. Something has to pay the bills here.

                        As for your gear. Just slow down. We don't understand what you are doing, or why. Building a guest house, sort of off grid, sort of on grid ?

                        What country are you in ?
                        The first step to success is to realize that when you add batteries, you never get payback. Battery replacement costs consume any savings.

                        The only way to save with solar is batteryless GRID InterTIE. Where your PV panels power an inverter that backfeeds the Grid and unwinds your electric meter. IF your Grid allows this to be done.

                        Most developed areas don't allow for DC and AC wires both in the walls without special attention so things CANNOT get mixed up.
                        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          To give you an idea, here's a link to components used for a small cabin sized 1 kw system off grid system.

                          http://www.wholesalesolar.com/189070...d-solar-system

                          So you're looking at about $6,500 plus a battery bank capable of holding about 400 Ah, which will set you back another $1,500 or so.

                          Off grid systems are much more expensive that grid tied systems, so if grid tied is an option, I would follow Mike's advice above, and go that route instead.
                          Last edited by pclausen; 11-29-2016, 09:34 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

                            we approve posts with links as fast as we are paid, - wait - the mods aren't being paid ? We get to it when we get to it, sorry for the delays,
                            Links are generally OK as long as you are not selling or linking to sites that compete with our Host site here. Something has to pay the bills here.

                            As for your gear. Just slow down. We don't understand what you are doing, or why. Building a guest house, sort of off grid, sort of on grid ?

                            What country are you in ?
                            The first step to success is to realize that when you add batteries, you never get payback. Battery replacement costs consume any savings.

                            The only way to save with solar is batteryless GRID InterTIE. Where your PV panels power an inverter that backfeeds the Grid and unwinds your electric meter. IF your Grid allows this to be done.

                            Most developed areas don't allow for DC and AC wires both in the walls without special attention so things CANNOT get mixed up.

                            Hi Mike, understood about the "links"

                            I live in Indonesia ( originally I am from Holland ) on a small island and building a small house in my back-garden so I do not need to "extend" my house, Payback as you described is not an issue nor necessary, i guess you could say it is a "new" hobby, so I have to run the Solar system off batteries coz we cannot feed back into the grid ... just a private system,

                            Yesterday I started reading a 40 page "guide.pv.installation" with a lot of information and drawings ... it is getting more clear now .. and it seems doable enough .. i even figured out all the cable sizes for the system ....with a friend who likes Solar also we calculated all the lights & pumps & fans to be powered in day & night & time and came to the total number 338 W ...

                            SOOOO it seems 4 Solar panels and 2 batteries are sufficient ( for now ) i have decided to run the system on NEW batteries, 6V / 225AH for now, and see how it goes ( thanks PNjunction )

                            I even found 2 piece "COMBINERS w fuses" in my garage brand-new that I can use ... for the 4 solar RED 7 4 solar BLACK cables to be combined & fused.

                            Hope this has clarified some stuff, and hope you guys can answer some questions .... as the statement QUOTE ""Nothing you have i smade to work with each other"" UNQUOTE doesn't make any sense, as i bought High quality ... or are you saying the items below are not for 12 / 24 Volt solar equipment ?? I beg the différance Sir.. prove me wrong if you please Mr Sunking ?
                            1. Solar Panel (4 piece) 100W / 18.5V - 21.5V / 5.5A-6.2A
                            2. MC4 Solar Panel Connector used for Solar Cable
                            3. 45A MPPT Solar charge controller with LCD dispaly 12V 24V 36V 48V solar panel battery charger
                            4. MP-3500 (24v) twisted blade sewage pumping septic sewer toilet without clogging sewage pumps garbage
                            5. High Head Brushless DC water pump 12V/24v with Flow switch
                            6. DC12V-24V 4A/ch Wall Type Touch Panel Dimmer Controller Wall Switch Ring For 3528 5050 Single Color LED Strip LED light
                            7. 25W 42 inch 12V DC big scale Ceiling fan,1050mm 12v fan,powerful 12v dc ceiling fan,solar fan
                            8. Downlight bathroom GU10/MR16 fitting ceiling spot lights IP65 & LED Spotlight MR16 12V Aluminum Led Lamp 3W-15W Led Spot Light Bulb

                            I do have a few questions, so if this is possible then your help is much appreciated ....

                            Good Day
                            Andre



                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BP6666VR View Post
                              Hope this has clarified some stuff, and hope you guys can answer some questions .... as the statement QUOTE ""Nothing you have i smade to work with each other"" UNQUOTE doesn't make any sense, as i bought High quality ...
                              It maybe high quality, but none of it made to work with each other.

                              Let me give you an example. You want a 5000/10,000 watt Inverter. Do you have a clue what it takes to support such a beast? Allow me to clue you in. It takes?

                              Battery Minimum = 48 volts @ 1000 AH. That is a 3000 lb or 1360 Kg costing around $9000.
                              80 to 100 Amp MPPT Charge Controller
                              4000 to 5000 watt Solar Panel.

                              What you have is a 400 watt of panels and 400 watts can only support:

                              12 volt 250 AH Battery
                              40 Amp Mppt Controller\
                              600 watt Inverter.

                              Do you see any problems? Everything has to be matched up. What you have is a 100 car freight train of an Inverter connected up to a bicycle as the Engine. You are going to brake the bicycle trying to pull a train with it.
                              Last edited by Sunking; 11-29-2016, 10:32 PM.
                              MSEE, PE

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