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  • A couple of questions

    Hello,

    a friend of mine lives in Palm Springs, which is a prime solar area. I read a lot (am from Germany, which went through a heavy cycle of boom and bust of solar - thanks to 1st very generous subsidies - feed in tariffs - that 2nd were cut down drastically. That was wiping out most of our solar equipment production and new installations. A new residential installation here is now around 1.2 €/Wp - and still the installers and owners make a - though small - profit)
    I read about net metering and the upcoming net metering II. About GEC and EGC, firefighters' standoffs,..
    A few questions remain:

    By what metric does the 10kW size limit for residential PV get measured? STC PTC inverter DC rating inverter AC rating......?

    Why are in the US the very expensive high power panels so popular (LGs over 300W, SunPower, Panasonic ....) when good quality panels like Hanwha, Winaico, Aleo are much more economic? If space is at a premium and the generated electricity is very valuable there might be a reason. But most of the time there's enough area.

    What are the reasons for the very high labour costs for the installations? We have constructed 40 GWp, and a 2 worker team installs a 10kWp system in 1 day for 1000 to 1200 €. There has to be 1 craftsmaster roofer and 1 craftsmaster electrician (journeyman is not enough by our laws). Of yourse the company has some margin on the equipment (panels, inverter...). A well organized company has 2 teams erecting 8 to 10 systems a week - and makes a good profit. Our health and safety regulations are very strict - as are all our rules and regulations.

    Thanks
    Michael

  • #2
    The 10kW limit (for either the utility Net Metering rules or for reimbursement and incentive rules) seems to be based on the nominal inverter output rather than the rated power of the PV array. But there may be local variations, since it is a purely local rule.
    SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

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    • #3
      Good questions.


      Cynical and opinionated answers, in the order asked:

      - Common measure is STC Watts.

      - Advertising hype. Many/Most Americans are ignorant, crowd following sheeple who do not understand much of anything, including that solar equipment is mostly a commodity.

      - If you believe the common drool from installers/vendors, some of which may have merit, some of the cost is attributable to regulation and bureaucracy. Others see it as selling to the market, with some of that being perhaps a tacit form of benign price fixing.

      A question for you: What, in your opinion is the average size residential PV system in Germany ?

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      • #4
        It's common knowledge, however accurate that is I have no idea, that labor in the US is more expensive.
        Also don't forget the required 10 full system warranty, at least in California. That in itself is not inexpensive if the company intends to stay in business that long, other fly by night companies ignore that component in pricing.

        The 10-year system warranty must protect against defective workmanship, system or component breakdown, or degradation in electrical output of more than 15% from the originally rated electrical output during the 10-year period. The warranty must provide for free repair or replacement (including labor) of the system or system components.

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        • #5
          Thanks for the answers

          "nominal inverter output" vs. "STC (I assume for the generator=panels)" ... 2 answers....

          I highly doubt that labour in the US is more expensive than Germany, or that regulation and bureaucracy are more than over here. When it comes to wages they aren't easily comparable. A German worker get's like 15 € an hour, but that's after compulsory public health insurance (it's against the law to live in Germany without one since 1888), compulsory public unemployment insurance (it's against the law ..... since 1888), compulsory public pension system ( .... since 1888). And after income tax. All those premiums, taxes etc. have to go right from the employer to the taxman, pension system, health insurer. So while that wage sound low it's close to 25 € before that. And the resulting net wage of 15 € is more or less disposable income. 22 workdays a month and 7 workhours a day make 2310 €, off that you can live quite well and comfy here, and a household with 2 such incomes is by no means rich but lives without worry. Remember: education from pre-kindergarden to PhD is only pennies, good public transportation systems ...etc -- all paid by our high taxes)

          Average size of a residential rooftop PV system? Around 8 kWp - 10 kWp is a size threshold here too (in our Renewable Energy Law), but our steep roofs aren't always large enough (and asphalt shingles are very very rare here - it's concrete tiles, clay tiles, slate or standing seam Cu or Zn)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Fitzefatz View Post
            Thanks for the answers

            "nominal inverter output" vs. "STC (I assume for the generator=panels)" ... 2 answers....

            I highly doubt that labour in the US is more expensive than Germany, or that regulation and bureaucracy are more than over here. When it comes to wages they aren't easily comparable. A German worker get's like 15 € an hour, but that's after compulsory public health insurance (it's against the law to live in Germany without one since 1888), compulsory public unemployment insurance (it's against the law ..... since 1888), compulsory public pension system ( .... since 1888). And after income tax. All those premiums, taxes etc. have to go right from the employer to the taxman, pension system, health insurer. So while that wage sound low it's close to 25 € before that. And the resulting net wage of 15 € is more or less disposable income. 22 workdays a month and 7 workhours a day make 2310 €, off that you can live quite well and comfy here, and a household with 2 such incomes is by no means rich but lives without worry. Remember: education from pre-kindergarden to PhD is only pennies, good public transportation systems ...etc -- all paid by our high taxes)

            Average size of a residential rooftop PV system? Around 8 kWp - 10 kWp is a size threshold here too (in our Renewable Energy Law), but our steep roofs aren't always large enough (and asphalt shingles are very very rare here - it's concrete tiles, clay tiles, slate or standing seam Cu or Zn)
            While I certainly appreciate that the cost of labor in the U.S. is a lot more than simply the hourly wage paid, and the associated U.S. costs similar for a lot of what you mention also exist in the U.S., I seriously doubt anyone who shows up to install a PV system on a roof in the U.S. is making the kind of money as an hourly wage, or that the associated costs are greater in the U.S.

            As for better product, and not referring to the country of origin, but panels destined for the U.S. (if such a distinction exists at origin), considering U.S. vs. the world particularly, a question for you: What's the failure rate of panels in Germany/E.U. ?

            With the failure rate of panels being as low as it seems to be in the U.S., I wonder if the idea of "superior" panels or the idea of added cost due to warranty requirements are little more than red herrings.

            I'm a bit surprised that systems in Germany are that large. I would have thought smaller. Do you think the lower prices influence system size ? I thought European houses were smaller than U.S. dwellings. Where does the room for such large systems come from ?

            Bottom line if you please: After all the goofs, giggles and hoopla, what is a typical cost for a homeowner to install a turnkey system on a residence in Germany on a Euro/STC Watt basis ? And, to what extent, if any, is that price reduced due to gov. subsidies, either to the homeowner, installer or manufacturer ?

            Thanks in advance.
            Last edited by J.P.M.; 10-31-2016, 10:32 AM.

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            • #7
              Roofers are well paid here, a jouneyman will make the mentioned 15 € after a few years , a craftsmaster even more. It's hard work and if you see their skills in those beavertail double roofs or slate roofs (both will last 70 to 100 years) - it's pleasing to the eyes
              Electricians don't make that wages. And if you are self employed things are different still, compared to employed.

              Failure rate of panels in Germany/ E.U.? I have no idea, but I cannot think of any reason that it might be significantly different from elsewhere. Aleo had problems with junction boxes, bad batches happen at many manufacturers, but I cannot think of anything out of the ordinary. PV systems here require not much maintenance if any. A installer with some experience might be a better person to ask.

              Roof sizes. The south face of my parents' house is11x5-6 meters so could easily hold 30, maybe even 35 standard sized panels. Single family homes often come at roughly 10x10 m ground space, but there might be windows, sat dishes....

              A really great place (as a source of knowledge, as this forum is) is the photovoltaikforum.com forum. Unfortunately the English speaking section is not having many posts, the German one does have. There under "Angebote" you can see what rooftop systems are planned. They usually undergo a rigorous critique by the forum regulars.
              A residential system here is around 1200 € per kWp, fore sizes 8-10 kWp.including installation, before VAT. The owner has to register the PV system as a business with the taxman. He receives a feed in tariff of 12.31 €cents per kWh (in 2005 it were a whopping 54.53, in 2011 28.74 cents). The rate is guaranteed for 20 years. Electricity is expensive here, if you buy it, it's 27-30 cents per kWh if bought from an utility company.
              Our system of subsidies is completely centered around feed in tariffs. There is no net metering. These days a small profit of 5 to max. 7 % per annum is all an owner can expect.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Fitzefatz View Post
                A really great place (as a source of knowledge, as this forum is) is the http://www.photovoltaikforum.com forum. Unfortunately the English speaking section is not having many posts, the German one does have.
                Vielen Dank. Ich werde das uberprufen.

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