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  • Need help comparing quotes

    Hey Everyone!

    Over the past couple weeks I've gotten pretty excited about going solar. I'm to the point that I understand the numbers pretty well, but would like to get some advice from the experienced folk on the forums. For reference I'm in Denver, CO. In general it looks like I've been getting pre-rebate prices of ~$3.4/Watt - $3.9/Watt. We're going to finance the panels, preferably at a low interest (I've seen a number of 2.99%) for 10-12 years.

    Some details:
    1. We only have ~4-5 months of usage but we have calculated our monthly average is ~640 kWh.
    2. We have limited space on a detached garage. There is a large tree two houses down that one installer has said is a reason to NOT put anything on the east side... others have said the tree shadow won't matter that much. Nobody has done a super-thorough shadow analysis, to my knowledge... but some people have done things in sketch-up. That tree is the only major shadow to my knowledge.

    I've gotten several quotes from various installers, both local and the giants. I'm including a couple that I think stand out for one reason or another:

    SolarCity (cheapest I've seen):
    System Size: 4.42 kW
    Annual Production Estimate: 6,114 kWh
    Panels: 17x 260 Watt REC260PEZ (Panel on East, West, and South part of roof)
    Inverter: SOLAREDGE SE3800A w/ 17x Solaredge 300W Optimizers
    System Cost: $15,028 (they will take an additional $1000 off with a rebate)
    Price/Watt: 3.4 (3.17 after the rebate)
    Perk?: They guarantee production at 11,588 over a 2 year period
    Overall: Cheapest system I've seen, especially with the $1000 rebate. I'm seeing what the price looks like with some higher-efficiency panels (if they have them), but it can be kind of confusing trying to talk to a sales person, a concierge person, a regional manager.... but that's how they work.

    Southard (Local Company, quote through online only so far):
    System Size: 4.48 kW
    Annual Production Estimate: 6,200 kWh
    Panels: 16x Solarworld 280 Watt (I don't know panel locations)
    Inverter: Enphase energy microinverters
    System Cost: $14,739 (Waiting on the price with a loan...)
    Price/Watt: 3.29 (will increase with a loan)

    Namaste (local company, site visit happened):
    System Size: 5.355 kW
    Annual Production Estimate: 7,634 kWh
    Panels: 17x LG Neon 2 315 Watt (Panels on West and South part of roof)
    Inverter: SolarEdge SE5000A w/ optimizers
    System Cost: $20,000 (Cash is a good amount cheaper, but alas we want to loan)
    Price/Watt: 3.73

    I've had quite a few other quotes over or in between... but I think the three cover the gamut well. A couple general questions:
    1. Is there any way to know who is right on the shadow issue? Whether or not that tree is an issue determines whether or not the area of the roof is a limiting factor to getting 100% of our power needs. If we can definitely use east, south, and west space then a lower efficiency panel may be more cost effective (unless the costs for a third array offset that).
    2. How important is a performance guarantee on something like this? The local guys don't talk about it, and SolarCity/SunRun/Sungevity make it a huge part of the pitch. They must not pay out that much if they advertise it
    3. Is a premium panel going to be worth the extra costs? I've read the Neon 2 is a bifacial module, but if it's mounted parallel with the roof will that even make a difference?
    4. Are the large national companies going to be hard to work with, or has the community generally had positive experiences working with people like SolarCity?


    EDIT: I'm now seeing on the forum that financing panels typically adds ~$1000 - $3000 to the costs. Is this basically an underwriting fee to the bank? Although I'm not against paying ~$37 extra/month to go green ... it may be better to save the money and go cash. Regardless, would still love your input.
    Last edited by gsshanno; 10-25-2016, 11:24 PM.

  • #2
    1.) After seeing about a dozen+ of their jobs in my HOA, and dealing (or trying to deal) with SolarCity as the HOA rep responsible for reviewing/recommending solar installs to the Arch. Rev. Comm., I wouldn't let SolarCity on my property if they were giving systems away.

    2.) You may need to pay for a shading analysis. It may/may not be worth it.

    3.) Performance guarantees are marketing hype. The annual triggers are so low you'll trip over them. Read the fine print and you'll see why they're a joke. As a practical matter, they're useless and worthless, or less.

    4.) Panels are a commodity. All equal (electrical) sized systems in the same location and orientation will produce about equal annual output for as long as you're likely to own them, including bifacial panels, especially when placed parallel to and about 4"- 6" off a roof (the backside will get little if any sun, reflected or otherwise). Bifacials are marginally useful, and then only/mostly in orientations and applications rarely used. Generally more minuses than plusses, and mostly a gimmick to snare the solar ignorant. Looks good to the ignorant, and mostly a foolish novelty to the knowledgeable.

    5.) Your best bet is getting quotes from local, established, licensed electrical contractors who've been in business for 10 + years and sold PV for at least 5 of those 10. They may be still be around when things consolidate and still have some business to fall back on.

    6.) Cash is always better. However, solar being the most expensive way to reduce and electric bill and therefore about the last thing done if financial common sense has any place in your thinking, it'll be close to the last thing done. Spend your electric bill reduction efforts on conservation first. You'll get a quicker return on your investment and a smaller electrical load to meet with a smaller (read less costly) solar PV if/when that option becomes viable.

    7.) Educate yourself. Download a (free) copy of "Solar Power Your home for Dummies', or spend $20 on an updated hardcopy before you do anything else. Pay particular attention to the parts about conservation before solar.

    8.) After that, download something called PVWatts from the net. Read the info/help screens twice, get the orientations and tilts right and make some practice runs. Use a 10% system loss parameter. Remember, and read again on the help/info screens why PVWatts output is an estimate of long term average performance, not a short term prediction/guarantee.

    9.) Check out a site called PVOutput on the net. Lots of data on actual system performance in your area. Look or orientations close to what you may have for SWAGS of possible performance. Scale outputs per installed kW for comparison.

    10.) Get your roof inspected/serviced - cheap insurance you will not regret, and with the shade analysis, and all your newly acquired knowledge, size a system to your needs and lifestyle. Then, call reputable, established local vendors and tell them what you want - not the other way around. Set your price goal - I'd suggest ~~ $3.25 - $3.50/Watt depending on particulars of your situation and area prices with extras for electrical updates, etc. and negotiate - after you turn stuff off, take appropriate conservation measures as you see fit and figure out how much of a solar offset of your bill makes sense to you (maybe not 100 %). Keep all prices to yourself - revealing them will not get you a better price and will only set a price floor for the vendors.

    11.) Come back here to fill in knowledge gaps you can't close on your own.

    Welcome to the neighborhood and the forum of few(er) illusions.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by gsshanno View Post
      EDIT: I'm now seeing on the forum that financing panels typically adds ~$1000 - $3000 to the costs. Is this basically an underwriting fee to the bank? Although I'm not against paying ~$37 extra/month to go green ... it may be better to save the money and go cash. Regardless, would still love your input.
      It is generally pre paying points and fees. this is good in that now that part can be counted towards the ITC (30% federal credit) but bad in that it raises the cost. Most people get blinded by the "Zero Interest" (or low interest) but completely miss the fees that were added.
      OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks for the info!

        After seeing about a dozen+ of their jobs in my HOA, and dealing (or trying to deal) with SolarCity as the HOA rep responsible for reviewing/recommending solar installs to the Arch. Rev. Comm., I wouldn't let SolarCity on my property if they were giving systems away.
        Do you have any examples? Did they provide insufficient designs, or were you just unimpressed with their reputations in general?

        You may need to pay for a shading analysis. It may/may not be worth it.
        It may be worth it just so I know what to expect from that side of the roof. I've been going a little crazy with the different opinions ranging from: "Panels don't produce in the shade, man." to "Our engineers did a shade analysis and determined the effect would be negligible".

        Spend your electric bill reduction efforts on conservation first. You'll get a quicker return on your investment and a smaller electrical load to meet with a smaller (read less costly) solar PV if/when that option becomes viable.
        Thanks for this. Great point. I saw this elsewhere on the forum as well ("Conservation before Solar") but I guess it didn't sink in. We have gas heating, but if I want to go "green" we should focus on reducing that as well just the same. Plus the furnace isn't the only place we could conserve, I'm sure.

        Most people get blinded by the "Zero Interest" (or low interest) but completely miss the fees that were added.
        Great point here. Luckily our bidders were up front about the increase with their loan packages. I noticed the ones with less delta between cash and finance had 5%-7% rates. The 3% rates all were significantly pricier than the cash value. Our utility rebates will be decreased 75% into next year, but that's not really a reason to pull the trigger since we'd be paying most/all of that $0.02/kWh to the bank!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by gsshanno View Post
          It may be worth it just so I know what to expect from that side of the roof. I've been going a little crazy with the different opinions ranging from: "Panels don't produce in the shade, man." to "Our engineers did a shade analysis and determined the effect would be negligible".
          Solar modules do have reduced production in the shade. However you stated that the tree is a few houses away. The simplest solution is to look at the house at say 8:00 am and 9:00 am and see how much of the east roof is shadowed by the tree.
          If very little is shadowed at 9 it is negligible if very little is shadowed at 8 am, then even less to almost no effect.

          all of the systems you mentioned are either optimized or micros so they could handle partial shading quite well.
          OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by gsshanno View Post
            Thanks for the info!



            Do you have any examples? Did they provide insufficient designs, or were you just unimpressed with their reputations in general?



            It may be worth it just so I know what to expect from that side of the roof. I've been going a little crazy with the different opinions ranging from: "Panels don't produce in the shade, man." to "Our engineers did a shade analysis and determined the effect would be negligible".



            Thanks for this. Great point. I saw this elsewhere on the forum as well ("Conservation before Solar") but I guess it didn't sink in. We have gas heating, but if I want to go "green" we should focus on reducing that as well just the same. Plus the furnace isn't the only place we could conserve, I'm sure.



            Great point here. Luckily our bidders were up front about the increase with their loan packages. I noticed the ones with less delta between cash and finance had 5%-7% rates. The 3% rates all were significantly pricier than the cash value. Our utility rebates will be decreased 75% into next year, but that's not really a reason to pull the trigger since we'd be paying most/all of that $0.02/kWh to the bank!
            On SolarCity: Of over 100 solar arrays in my HOA from many vendors, SolarCity is, so far, the only vendor that the HOA forced the homeowner to have SolarCity remove their product and put the roof back together before county inspection for CC & R violations they refused to acknowledge much less correct. The job was installed without HOA knowledge, review and approval. The homeowner was 85 at the time and somewhat unsure of the situation. Two other homeowners cancelled their SolarCity contracts before install due to lack of communication. For most of the other SolarCity Jobs, I've had not much more than lack of communication, or arrogant hubris accompanied by stupefying ignorance as a result of my attempts to deal with SolarCity. IMO, their professionalism is non existent. I've given up attempting to communicate with them, leaving it to the homeowner. I rarely spoke with the same person twice on any job. They seem to go through help like crap through a goose. As a general observation, the equipment and install, may or may not have matched the drawings and other project documents on projects I reviewed. A lot of the labor was subbed out.

            FWIW, on shading, I'd agree with Butch's comments about distance to trees, etc. and looking at shade in the A.M./P.M., but I'd add and suggest to keep in mind that the sun's daily arc moves south to north and back again over the course of a year and shadows change.

            As for your other comments, a read of the book and other steps to information as I included will enlighten the situation for you. To repeat, knowledge is power. Educate yourself and get some of both. Think of it as multitasking.
            Last edited by J.P.M.; 10-26-2016, 11:47 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Howdy gsshanno some good advise above to a popular topic around these parts. I am a bit surprised that SC came in with such a decent price, about time in my view. Keep reading and you should go ok, I would suggest a few more quotes and maybe www.solarreviews.com and www.solar-estimates.org would be a good place to have a look at. Gratuitous plug alert

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