Finished By Bids, Thoughts?

[baadls1]

I have been lurking and reading up lots over the last 3 weeks and appreciate much of the information provided on the forum. Great thanks!

After much reading, I brought Baker Electric, Horizon, Peterson Dean and Sullivan Solar to the house to provide a bid. My own homework suggested a 5.1kw system. Yearly usage is ~8600 last year, which is the highest it has ever been, but have a newborn at home and expect that to remain unchanged. I have generally been looking for a 95-100% offset.

Quotes in no particular order (multiple quotes from some installers):

5.12kw @ $3.50/w
LG320 & SolarEdge Inverter

5.18kw @ $4.49/w
SP345 & SP microinverters

5.32kw @ $3.69/w
Canadian 280 & Enphase Inverters

5.7kw @$4.17/w
Solar World 285 & Enphase Inverters

4.48kw @ $4.35/w
SP320 & SMA Sunny Boy Inverter

I felt 2 of the vendors shined on their focus on quality workmanship and general interest in maintaining the aesthetics of the system against the house. Others added it as an "add on" charge and one suggested external was just fine as long as it was hidden/painted as best as possible. I also felt these 2 vendors were the most educated and had more questions and specifics to offer than the other two.

I have asked the vendor supplying the last quote to provide a bid on a 5.1kw system. I am generally kind of surprised at the wide range of sizing I am getting. It seems some vendors quote on existing customer rates vs. NEM rates and others quote extremely conservative vs. aggressive/realistic? with many variables considered. I have some reservations about Enphase based on some of the reading about the company recently. Also, all the vendors suggested slightly different mounting locations, varying from South only, combo South & West, and West only. A small amount of 2 story shading is anticipated on the west facing roof area and was considered in the initial proposal.

The purchase will be all cash, and pay back looks to be between 5.5-7 years. I particularly like the first and last quotes but I don't think their pricing is very negotiable, which is OK. $1-2k will not sway me from one vendor to another, but am interested in whether or not these are high to begin with and need a push or are acceptable. I do think that the 2 vendors I anticipated leading the pack followed through with those expectations and will likely only deal with them.

What are your thoughts about these quotes? Anyone else I should seriously consider in North County, San Diego? I am very patient and am willing to do some more research and am willing to wait as long as January to make a decision. Tax Rebate turn around time is of no priority.

Thanks in advance!

[sunnyguy]

Quote 1: great equipment at a reasonable price. Throw out the rest. You might be able to beat the price by $1-2k if you want to keep looking.

[ButchDeal]

5.12kw @ $3.50/w
LG320 & SolarEdge Inverter

5.18kw @ $4.49/w
SP345 & SP microinverters

5.32kw @ $3.69/w
Canadian 280 & Enphase Inverters

5.7kw @$4.17/w
Solar World 285 & Enphase Inverters

4.48kw @ $4.35/w
SP320 & SMA Sunny Boy Inverter

since it looks like you can fit the size you want with Canadian 280w modules, I would have bid Canadian/SolarEdge
I would toss the SP proposals as too expensive, really any over $4/w toss in your area.

[J.P.M.]

1.) Verify the output on your own with PVWatts and use 8-10 % system losses instead of the 14 % default. Read the help/info screens first and tray to get close on tilt/azimuth. Just don't put a lot of faith in the electrical cost portion of the model unless you know about rates and then you'll see why PVWatts ain't the best place to get electric bill estimates.

2.) Depending on shading, micros are more potential problems than they're worth. What's wrong with string inverters ? With each inverter as a potential failure point, one in a garage and accessible seems a better bet to me than 18 separate failure points on a hot roof and not very accessible.

3.) South facing will produce more output, but you'll be/already are on T.O.U. which will mean an off south to a slightly west orientation may produce slightly more output. Run PVWatts at different orientations and plug the hourly output into a spreadsheet with POCO rates by hour to get the potential annual revenue various orientations will produce. If south or west annual output per installed kW are similar, split the two, weighted toward more panels facing south. if different by a fair amount, split in favor of the greater annual output per installed kW as available area allows. Currently, using TMY3 estimates for irradiance, south orientations at common tilts of ~ 18-23 deg. will probably produce slightly more annual about output, and by the method described above, produce more annual revenue than a 240 deg. azimuth. However, annual bill after solar revenue reductions will probably still be more dependent on use patterns. Ideal revenue azimuth is ~ 200-220 deg., interdependent with tilt, but most roofs are not moveable.

4.) I'd also skip the Sunpower offerings, unless you want the equivalent of a Mercedes to haul groceries. Sunpower's good stuff, but of no real, practical long term advantage. I'm pretty sure the quality vendors you have in mind use Sunpower, and particularly it's high price, at least in some situations, as a deal closing aid and also to squeeze a few more bucks out of, say, an LG quote. It works something like this in the vendor's mind: "Yes, Mr./Ms. Fernbee, Sunpower's $4.50/Watt but you've looked at all the ads/hype, so you are convinced it's the best in the world, and if you buy that tripe, I'll make a lot on the sale. However, if you balk, I'll still sell you an XYZ system at about buck a watt less and in so doing, take advantage of the size of the price difference to allow me to sell the XYZ system for $3.50/Watt instead of the, say, $3.25/Watt I'd need to go to if the comparison was between XYZ and a comparably priced system".

That is, use Sunpower pricing to boost the XYZ price by comparing it's price to an artificially higher priced product and so boost the margin on the XYZ system. Either way, the vendor makes out. Think like the vendor. Skip the Sunpower.

5.) I think I can guess which vendors you favor. The quality of either is, IMO, superior to the other two, You can get a good install from either. The other two are OK, but in my experience, you'll need a bit more vendor surveillance to ensure you get what you pay for, which is not to imply you can give the other two a blank check. You'll get what you verify.

[Git]

I am partial to LG 320 with Solar Edge Optimizer since that is what I recently purchased. Your first quote appears to be a good price regarding that combination, if the installation meets your standards

I also had an issue with contractors bidding on a system size that I wanted yet they were using a different number of panels. A couple wanted to use 39 panels while Baker said they could do it with 36. One contractor even planted a bug in my ear that Baker may be deliberately underbidding to get the contract and then later down the road (at the site survey) they were going to say they needed 39 panels and I would now have to pay more...

I even ran the numbers myself on PVWatts and had a hard time seeing how 36 panels would do the job. I played around with the 'system loss' setting and when I got down to around 7% (the default is 14%) I could get it to work out. I asked Baker about it and they assured me that 36 panels would handle it and that they use some other software program (Aurora) and there numbers were good. It finally got to the point where I felt I "needed" 39 panels (lol) and was willing to pay extra just to have them - so that is how I ended up with 39 panels (no regrets)

I am happy to report that to get PVWatts to match my actual production numbers during the month of Aug I had to use a 2% system loss, so I am pretty sure their 36 panels would have worked out - but I am still happy I have the extra production

Getting back to your quotes. Here is what I would do. Decide on the system that YOU want and where YOU want it mounted. Write it down, email it to all your contractors, let them know that is what you are doing, and ask them for THEIR final bid on the system using your specs

[J.P.M.]

I am partial to LG 320 with Solar Edge Optimizer since that is what I recently purchased. Your first quote appears to be a good price regarding that combination, if the installation meets your standards

I also had an issue with contractors bidding on a system size that I wanted yet they were using a different number of panels. A couple wanted to use 39 panels while Baker said they could do it with 36. One contractor even planted a bug in my ear that Baker may be deliberately underbidding to get the contract and then later down the road (at the site survey) they were going to say they needed 39 panels and I would now have to pay more...

I even ran the numbers myself on PVWatts and had a hard time seeing how 36 panels would do the job. I played around with the 'system loss' setting and when I got down to around 7% (the default is 14%) I could get it to work out. I asked Baker about it and they assured me that 36 panels would handle it and that they use some other software program (Aurora) and there numbers were good. It finally got to the point where I felt I "needed" 39 panels (lol) and was willing to pay extra just to have them - so that is how I ended up with 39 panels (no regrets)

I am happy to report that to get PVWatts to match my actual production numbers during the month of Aug I had to use a 2% system loss, so I am pretty sure their 36 panels would have worked out - but I am still happy I have the extra production

Getting back to your quotes. Here is what I would do. Decide on the system that YOU want and where YOU want it mounted. Write it down, email it to all your contractors, let them know that is what you are doing, and ask them for THEIR final bid on the system using your specs

1.) It isn't the # of panels - it's the total system Wattage.
2.) I'd be careful of vendors who badmouth the competition, especially spouting what sounds like hearsay or just plain B.S. That ain't got no class.
3.) That your PVWatts estimated long term average annual output got close to actual output for one month is as random a happenstance as the weather and says nothing about anything except that the combination of actual weather for Aug. 2016, including irradiance combined to produce an output close to the moth of the year PVWatts used to make it's estimate. See the PVWatts help screens for more information.
4. For a better estimate of output, you want nice - you pay nice - download and take the time to understand something called SAM - from NREL. It's PVWatts on steroids. Still uses the same weather data as PVWatts, and so the same caveats about applying output meant as long term average to short term periods like a year, or a month which can be +/- 30% or so from one month in one year to the same month a year later. The 2% was a fluke. Read the help screens.

[baadls1]

I am leaning towards the LG320 system and over sizing it for future considerations. I think I will negotiate in the extended warranty for the Solar Edge inverter to 20 years. Are most people seeing any wiggle room on negotiating?

[huge]

Like sunnyguy said, you could do 1-2k better. Have you read some of the recent posts from the past month? Try advanced improvements and LA Solar Group as well. They can both beat those prices, but you have to be willing to negotiate

[baadls1]

I ended up entering a contract tonight on a 5.76kw system using LG320 panels and a SolarEdge SE6000 inverter with 20 yr warranty for $3.20/w + a referral bonus for getting my father to sign up for an even bigger system on his house. The installer is amongst the best in San Diego county. The system is oversized with a 6.3yr payback that will very likely allow me to add an EV in 3 years and still net $0.

[J.P.M.]

I ended up entering a contract tonight on a 5.76kw system using LG320 panels and a SolarEdge SE6000 inverter with 20 yr warranty for $3.20/w + a referral bonus for getting my father to sign up for an even bigger system on his house. The installer is amongst the best in San Diego county. The system is oversized with a 6.3yr payback that will very likely allow me to add an EV in 3 years and still net $0.

Any additional roof/electrical work ? Who's the vendor ?

Thanx.

[baadls1]

I have a 200 amp panel (house was built in 2006). Panels will be mounted on South and East facing roof. Inverter installed in the garage, all interior conduit with majority of panels above the garage and a 20ft run for the east facing panels. The install looks to be a cake walk from a vendor's perspective.

Please PM me for the vendor and I would be happy to share!

[J.P.M.]

I have a 200 amp panel (house was built in 2006). Panels will be mounted on South and East facing roof. Inverter installed in the garage, all interior conduit with majority of panels above the garage and a 20ft run for the east facing panels. The install looks to be a cake walk from a vendor's perspective.

Please PM me for the vendor and I would be happy to share!

There are no PM's. Otherwise I'd have asked. What's with the I've got a secret routine ?

[baadls1]

Not trying to be secretive. Just trying to consider the vendor and sales employee.

The vendor I selected was Baker Electric Solar and the only other vendor I could have considered was Sullivan. Baker came within $2k of their own warehouse blowout price that utilized LG 285 and SMA.

I wanted the better efficiency, aesthetics, fewer panels with better monitoring and longer inverter warranty. It was well worth it.

Now I am trying to figure out if my employee discount will be worth anything when it comes time for true up!

[J.P.M.]

Not trying to be secretive. Just trying to consider the vendor and sales employee.

The vendor I selected was Baker Electric Solar and the only other vendor I could have considered was Sullivan. Baker came within $2k of their own warehouse blowout price that utilized LG 285 and SMA.

I wanted the better efficiency, aesthetics, fewer panels with better monitoring and longer inverter warranty. It was well worth it.

Now I am trying to figure out if my employee discount will be worth anything when it comes time for true up!

Thank you for the information. Other folks in San Diego will benefit from the information - believe me.

FWIW, and IMO only but based on about a dozen jobs I've monitored that they did, you could do a lot worse than Baker. Sullivan is also good but usually higher $$ than Baker. I actually wanted Baker for my job, but got the same install quality for 10 % less from Milholland for identical equipment with some extra goodies thrown in, but that was 3 + years ago.

A neighbor of mine works for SDG & E and had a system done by Sullivan. I'll check with him, but I don't think he over generates. I'll get back to you w/info if he's willing to discuss.