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  • 2 systems - SolarWorld vs. SunPower, decisions decisions ...

    We have a pretty aggressive state incentives on solar installs (which are being phased out/lowered over the next few years). I have been considering solar for quite some time and have the following two systems quoted to me. We also have one of the lowest rates for purchased kWh (about .10), but net billing, for now anyway, helps speed up the ROI. Both quoted cost almost exactly the same, $25K before incentives, $5K net out of pocket. Which deal is better?

    There are some definite intangibles, such as are micro inverters better/worse than string inverters, which is the better panel, USA made vs. USA assembled, brand names, aesthetics on what may be mounted by the meter (string inverter vs. nothing when using micro invertors), BS factor of sales person, possible inflated/padded numbers on quote, etc..

    Here are the basics (all their calculations/claims):

    System 1
    17 - 265 watt Solar World PV panels (15.8% efficiency?)
    17 - Enphase microinverters
    4.5 kw system
    496 kwh production/month
    No out of pocket ("free" bridge loan) - when asked to break out the loan - it results in an approximate net savings less than $300


    System 2
    18 - SunPower E19 320 watt PV panels (19% efficiency?)
    1 - SunPower 5000m inverter
    5.76 kw system
    717 kwh production/month
    50% due at contact signing ($12,500) and 50% due upon completion

    Due to the fact, that if looked at strictly in terms of net production for the $ outlay - I supposed System 2 is the clear winner. However, if that were the only consideration, there are cheaper panels and inverters (and companies that will quote labor lower) - so I am trying to look beyond that. I believe both quotes are on reputable product and from generally reputable local firms.

    The way I see it, there are at least 3 main levels or sets of decision points, and of course quite a few potential subsets, depending on individual circumstances and preferences.

    The first one is the stated specs of a given system, which should be relatively accurate for comparison purposes (controlled conditions testing). Assuming one is looking at a relatively known company that has track record of at least a few years. I believe the brands I have listed above fit this description - recognized as reputable and arguably in the Top 10 (or 15) or so in panels/inverters.

    The second level is based on the contractor/company doing the installation. Let's face it, this can be just as important, or more so, that the first level. If you have great product but a sketchy contractor, and there are problems, and they won't fix them - you still have a system that is not earning back your investment while you deal with that. So, top rated product, with a questionable install company can be a poor decision - compared to a slightly lower rated product with a solid installer behind it. Does the installer have the track record and means (and willingness) to fix problems quickly? Do they have a solid financial base to weather a manufacturer that has a bad batch of panels - that will force them to finance the corrections until they get reimbursed for warranty work? Will they be around in 10 years to support that 10 or 25 year warranty that makes us feel good at the contract signing? Is the salesman credible? Do they present distorted/inflated or wishful thinking numbers to get you closer to signing? While they may not be lying, and even though you only probably only have to deal with the salesman now - it is probably indicative of how the company as a whole operates - they hire and train the guy - so they are supporting what he says/does/promises.

    The third level, is based on personal preferences and financial needs. Is made in the USA worth anything to you? Do you need/want financing for the system? Do aesthetics affect your decision (look of the panels, inverter on outside wall), etc....

    The main reason I suppose I am posting this (other than for some great incite from a vast amount of knowledge/opinions of the product brands and types out there to supplement my limited solar knowledge) is to force me to walk through all these factors and come closer to a decision.

    Bottom line, System 1 seems to produce 29% less electricity, but I lean toward it for 100% USA made panels, micro inverters preferred, numbers presented are much more realistic/conservative (i.e. trustworthy sales pitch - personal pet peeve when someone exaggerates excessively). However, System 2, compared to System 1, will get a faster payback - no matter how you slice it, right?

    SunPower seems to be acknowledged to be toward the top of the panel producers, no? Of course Solar World seems to be recognized as high quality as well.

    Let me know what you guys think about the brands and/or whether the numbers seem reasonable - and any other things I have missed.

    thanks

  • #2
    That seems an exorbitant price for the SolarWorld system. No way would I pay $1.20/watt extra pre-incentives for it over the Sunpower one. That said, the microinverters would be the way to go if you have significant shading issues. If shading is an issue for you then I'd get some other quotes.

    BTW, I think SolarWorld is a German company that makes panels in Oregon. Sunpower is an American company with significant Total Petroleum ownership that makes panels in Asia. Solarworld is really struggling and is now a penny stock. In contrast, Sunpower has gone from about $4 per share to over $20 in the last year.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ian S View Post
      That seems an exorbitant price for the SolarWorld system. No way would I pay $1.20/watt extra pre-incentives for it over the Sunpower one. That said, the microinverters would be the way to go if you have significant shading issues. If shading is an issue for you then I'd get some other quotes.

      BTW, I think SolarWorld is a German company that makes panels in Oregon. Sunpower is an American company with significant Total Petroleum ownership that makes panels in Asia. Solarworld is really struggling and is now a penny stock. In contrast, Sunpower has gone from about $4 per share to over $20 in the last year.
      Shading is not an issue - however, I would like to not have anything additional mounted next to my meter/service panel. I also like the idea that the micro inverters are silent, shaded and if one should fail, the rest of the system fully produces while I get someone to come out and replace (25 yr warranty on the Enphase micro inverters). Also, the only logical place to place the string inverter is on the south side of house and it will see pretty significant sun/heat.

      The Sunpower guy told me that you CAN'T use micro inverters with Sunpower panels. I have not been able to confirm this yet. I know he would prefer to sell me SP panels and string inverter - and I'm sure that if I don't buy the combo the warranty will probably be reduced. I will ask him to quote with micro inverters.

      Thanks for the heads up on the stock - definitely a huge consideration, warranty on equipment is useless if the manufacturer goes out of business! Solar World is definitely on the ropes, while SunPower is riding a wave right now. Doesn't guaranty anything - but I know where I would put my money if I were a betting man.

      Comment


      • #4
        Those sunpower modules can't be used with micros. Not even the 300W powerone micro inverters due to Vmax. Why not go with a string inverter and buy an extended 20year warranty? Can you mount the inverter indoors?
        PowerOne 3.6 x 2, 32 SolarWorld 255W mono

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't have any experience with Solar world. The Sunpower panels come with a 25 year warranty and guarantee the amount of kWh output for 25 years as well. They are also the most efficient.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by chivy6 View Post
            Shading is not an issue - however, I would like to not have anything additional mounted next to my meter/service panel. I also like the idea that the micro inverters are silent, shaded and if one should fail, the rest of the system fully produces while I get someone to come out and replace (25 yr warranty on the Enphase micro inverters). Also, the only logical place to place the string inverter is on the south side of house and it will see pretty significant sun/heat.

            The Sunpower guy told me that you CAN'T use micro inverters with Sunpower panels. I have not been able to confirm this yet. I know he would prefer to sell me SP panels and string inverter - and I'm sure that if I don't buy the combo the warranty will probably be reduced. I will ask him to quote with micro inverters.

            Thanks for the heads up on the stock - definitely a huge consideration, warranty on equipment is useless if the manufacturer goes out of business! Solar World is definitely on the ropes, while SunPower is riding a wave right now. Doesn't guaranty anything - but I know where I would put my money if I were a betting man.
            If you are sold on the microinverters, then my suggestion would be to get another quote. The high wattage Sunpower panels can't use the current micros so find another good panel that can. That Solarworld quote is far too high IMHO. LG have a good rep and Suniva is made in the USA.

            Comment


            • #7
              You are doing the right thing by asking the experts on here (not me). I did the same, but you also have to do your homework as well. It strikes me as odd that in solar almost all the companies have 20 year warranty. There aren't a whole lot of them that have been around for 20 years. A 25 year warranty with a belly up company is useless. It is difficult to stay in business when you are always losing money every quarter. In the end, it is your cash that is being spent at the end of the day. Good luck on whatever you chose .

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by joegovette View Post
                You are doing the right thing by asking the experts on here (not me). I did the same, but you also have to do your homework as well. It strikes me as odd that in solar almost all the companies have 20 year warranty. There aren't a whole lot of them that have been around for 20 years. A 25 year warranty with a belly up company is useless. It is difficult to stay in business when you are always losing money every quarter. In the end, it is your cash that is being spent at the end of the day. Good luck on whatever you chose .
                Believe the warranty lengths are requirements to qualify for the Federal Tax Credit as well as state incentives like the CA Solar Initiative. Given CA is the biggest solar market for the US, almost all manufacturers had to follow CA requirements in order to make sure their equipment was eligible including the minimum warranty periods for the panels.

                But yes you do want a company that can stand behind their warranty.

                Good luck!

                Comment


                • #9
                  See the movie Tommy Boy for a good explanation of what a "guarantee" is.
                  PowerOne 3.6 x 2, 32 SolarWorld 255W mono

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by chivy6 View Post
                    We have a pretty aggressive state incentives on solar installs (which are being phased out/lowered over the next few years). I have been considering solar for quite some time and have the following two systems quoted to me. We also have one of the lowest rates for purchased kWh (about .10), but net billing, for now anyway, helps speed up the ROI. Both quoted cost almost exactly the same, $25K before incentives, $5K net out of pocket. Which deal is better?

                    There are some definite intangibles, such as are micro inverters better/worse than string inverters, which is the better panel, USA made vs. USA assembled, brand names, aesthetics on what may be mounted by the meter (string inverter vs. nothing when using micro invertors), BS factor of sales person, possible inflated/padded numbers on quote, etc..

                    Here are the basics (all their calculations/claims):

                    System 1
                    17 - 265 watt Solar World PV panels (15.8% efficiency?)
                    17 - Enphase microinverters
                    4.5 kw system
                    496 kwh production/month
                    No out of pocket ("free" bridge loan) - when asked to break out the loan - it results in an approximate net savings less than $300


                    System 2
                    18 - SunPower E19 320 watt PV panels (19% efficiency?)
                    1 - SunPower 5000m inverter
                    5.76 kw system
                    717 kwh production/month
                    50% due at contact signing ($12,500) and 50% due upon completion

                    Due to the fact, that if looked at strictly in terms of net production for the $ outlay - I supposed System 2 is the clear winner. However, if that were the only consideration, there are cheaper panels and inverters (and companies that will quote labor lower) - so I am trying to look beyond that. I believe both quotes are on reputable product and from generally reputable local firms.

                    The way I see it, there are at least 3 main levels or sets of decision points, and of course quite a few potential subsets, depending on individual circumstances and preferences.

                    The first one is the stated specs of a given system, which should be relatively accurate for comparison purposes (controlled conditions testing). Assuming one is looking at a relatively known company that has track record of at least a few years. I believe the brands I have listed above fit this description - recognized as reputable and arguably in the Top 10 (or 15) or so in panels/inverters.

                    The second level is based on the contractor/company doing the installation. Let's face it, this can be just as important, or more so, that the first level. If you have great product but a sketchy contractor, and there are problems, and they won't fix them - you still have a system that is not earning back your investment while you deal with that. So, top rated product, with a questionable install company can be a poor decision - compared to a slightly lower rated product with a solid installer behind it. Does the installer have the track record and means (and willingness) to fix problems quickly? Do they have a solid financial base to weather a manufacturer that has a bad batch of panels - that will force them to finance the corrections until they get reimbursed for warranty work? Will they be around in 10 years to support that 10 or 25 year warranty that makes us feel good at the contract signing? Is the salesman credible? Do they present distorted/inflated or wishful thinking numbers to get you closer to signing? While they may not be lying, and even though you only probably only have to deal with the salesman now - it is probably indicative of how the company as a whole operates - they hire and train the guy - so they are supporting what he says/does/promises.

                    The third level, is based on personal preferences and financial needs. Is made in the USA worth anything to you? Do you need/want financing for the system? Do aesthetics affect your decision (look of the panels, inverter on outside wall), etc....

                    The main reason I suppose I am posting this (other than for some great incite from a vast amount of knowledge/opinions of the product brands and types out there to supplement my limited solar knowledge) is to force me to walk through all these factors and come closer to a decision.

                    Bottom line, System 1 seems to produce 29% less electricity, but I lean toward it for 100% USA made panels, micro inverters preferred, numbers presented are much more realistic/conservative (i.e. trustworthy sales pitch - personal pet peeve when someone exaggerates excessively). However, System 2, compared to System 1, will get a faster payback - no matter how you slice it, right?

                    SunPower seems to be acknowledged to be toward the top of the panel producers, no? Of course Solar World seems to be recognized as high quality as well.

                    Let me know what you guys think about the brands and/or whether the numbers seem reasonable - and any other things I have missed.

                    thanks

                    So wait, you have SunPower and Solarworld panels priced the same and youre divided? That is an easy win for SunPower. Youre talking about high end, high efficiency modules from a company with almost 30 years in manufacturing panels to one that makes good quality panels but is slowly circling the toilet drain.


                    The whole "made in USA" thing is overblown, guess where most of that money is going? Straight to Germany. People obsess over where stuff gets made but not ultimately where the money goes. As far as supporting American goes, based on their offices all over the U.S, as well as large facilities in Richmond, Santa Clara and Austin, Texas, im willing to bet Sunpower employs considerably more Americans.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KRenn View Post
                      So wait, you have SunPower and Solarworld panels priced the same and youre divided? That is an easy win for SunPower. Youre talking about high end, high efficiency modules from a company with almost 30 years in manufacturing panels to one that makes good quality panels but is slowly circling the toilet drain.


                      The whole "made in USA" thing is overblown, guess where most of that money is going? Straight to Germany. People obsess over where stuff gets made but not ultimately where the money goes. As far as supporting American goes, based on their offices all over the U.S, as well as large facilities in Richmond, Santa Clara and Austin, Texas, im willing to bet Sunpower employs considerably more Americans.
                      Really good comments in this thread. I think these companies are both very good, but they each annoy me in ways too. Solarworld is not financially stable and so relies too heavily on the "made in USA" angle. They are the largest US manufacturer, but that only matters to me if they produce quality panels (and they do). I don't care if they're owned by a German company - the production facility is here, not just the sales team. Solarworld recently restructured their debt and should be financially sound for the next few years, which is all you can say about any of these companies.

                      Sunpower highlights that their panels are the best - they may be, but the efficiency gains are not terribly important if you don't have a space issue. They have a great warranty, but they are typically so much more than the competition so as to make the system inefficient on a cost basis. Solarworld now has a 30 yr warranty with less annual degradation, and their installed panels have lasted for well over 20 years in the real world. So, personally, I'm comfortable with the quality of both panels for 25+ years. One thing I don't like about Sunpower is the lack of micro inverters - I love that technology, but I can understand someone not being interested if they have zero shade issues. But I like the idea of fewer moving parts and knowing exactly how each panel is performing. With a string inverter, you don't know if one panel is underperforming (and maybe needs replacement) relative to the others, if the whole system is performing at the guaranteed level.

                      But given the systems quoted, it's a no brainer for the larger Sunpower system at the same price.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KRenn View Post
                        The whole "made in USA" thing is overblown, guess where most of that money is going? Straight to Germany.
                        One more thing - what money are you talking about? Solarworld hasn't made a profit in years (neither has Sunpower). Solarworld's revenue has gone to its employees (in Oregon primarily) and suppliers and for other expenses (mostly local). Compare this to Sunpower, whose revenue goes to production and employee expenses in the Philippines, with profits eventually going to the French majority owner and others. The German parent company of Solarworld hasn't seen a dime from its US investment yet, and in fact the shareholders recently gave up their shares to save the company.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bandit02 View Post
                          Really good comments in this thread. I think these companies are both very good, but they each annoy me in ways too. Solarworld is not financially stable and so relies too heavily on the "made in USA" angle. They are the largest US manufacturer, but that only matters to me if they produce quality panels (and they do). I don't care if they're owned by a German company - the production facility is here, not just the sales team. Solarworld recently restructured their debt and should be financially sound for the next few years, which is all you can say about any of these companies.
                          Solarworld is in trouble, both in the U.S. and in Germany, these tariffs they pushed for are a last gasp effort that desperation has brought about.

                          They've laid off close to 300 workers at Hillsboro, Oregon over the past year and were literally right on the edge of bankruptcy until some Middle East Sheik cash helped to prolong the agony a little while further. Their problem is that unlike SunPower, they haven't differentiated themselves in the market, their panels are more or less the same as those from a dozen other companies but are more expensive overall, they've been in a death spiral for a couple years now, and the only thing still keeping their American operation going, after they shut down their California facilities, is the tens in millions of subsidies from the state of Oregon which will eventually run out. Unlike SunPower who has been seeing frequently quarterly increases in panel sales, Solarworld has been seeing decreases for the past year and a half, the Middle East money will hold them over, but seeing as how their product still remains uncompetitive in the market, even with the applied tariff's, how much longer can they honestly hold out for? I say by the middle of 2014, this company has closed down its U.S. operations and by the end of 2014, will be calling it quits. This of course is supported by a variety of financial analyst's, in and outside the solar industry.


                          Fatima Toor, lead analyst, solar components, Lux Research Inc.

                          “I think SolarWorld’s eventual fate may look similar to that of Q-Cells, another German headquartered company and one of the biggest solar cell manufacturers not too long ago that filed for bankruptcy in April 2012 and got acquired by Korean conglomerate, Hanwha, in September 2012. Last week there were rumors that a Qatari investor, most likely QSTEC, may acquire SolarWorld but nothing is confirmed yet.

                          “The two key things for thriving in the solar market glut is differentiation in technology and/or business strategy. SolarWorld needs to focus on both surviv(ing) and then hopefully thriv(ing) in the growing solar industry. For now, I think SolarWorld might just be too late
                          Glenn Montgomery, executive director, Oregon Solar Energy Industries Association

                          “Besides the financial and operational restructuring that is currently underway, SolarWorld needs to play to its strengths and differentiate its product from the competition that tend to focus on commodity-based criteria.
                          Solarworld had once been the shooting star in the German renewable sector, but now it has become a symbol of the solar industry's fall. After a marathon meeting, shareholders approved a rescue plan.

                          Dark clouds are gathering over the town of Bonn in western Germany. The only one smiling at a crucial shareholder meeting there is Frank Asbeck, chief executive of Solarworld. He knows that the very future of his company is at stake.

                          "I felt that the rain outside was a positive signal, symbolizing that our solar modules have been washed clean," Asbeck was found joking. "Now the dust has finally come off."

                          He wants to see a new beginning, says the man whose outfit makes him look more like a Bavarian pub owner than a company executive. Asbeck lives in two castles, complete with private hunting ground.

                          At the peak of Solarworld's business operations, the firm was worth some 5 billion euros ($6.7 billion), but today it is worth next to nothing. Creditors recently agreed to part with about half of their invested money, while ordinary shareholders had to put up with seeing their investment being whittled down by 95 percent to stave off insolvency.
                          http://www.dw.de/solarworld-with-no-...sun/a-17005858


                          They avoided bankruptcy by screwing their shareholders in the process, the problem there is that you can only do that once, if they can't turn things around, if they can't excel, they will collapse due to lack of new funding.

                          "We've only had our shares for about a year," said an elderly investor. "We meant to support the firm a bit, but who would have thought it would go down the drain like that?" Some shareholders inherited their investment, others simply had good faith in the solar industry.

                          "I bought my shares, because I considered Mr. Asbeck to be a shrewd entrepreneur, but now I'm simply disappointed," said one participant in the meeting.

                          Many German solar companies have closed their doors, others have moved out of the solar business completely, once the subsidies in Germany fell off, many of these companies fell apart and Solarworld is not far behind them.

                          Meanwhile, German solar companies such as Q-Cells, Solon and Conergy have had to file for insolvency, with parts of the production cycle wound down or sold to foreign competitors. Big firms such as Siemens and Bosch have completely opted out of their solar business.









                          Sunpower highlights that their panels are the best - they may be, but the efficiency gains are not terribly important if you don't have a space issue. They have a great warranty, but they are typically so much more than the competition so as to make the system inefficient on a cost basis.
                          That all of course depends on the user and their particular situation, sometimes one is the better option, sometimes the other is the better option, in a case where they are even, dollar for dollar, SunPower by far is the best option.



                          Solarworld now has a 30 yr warranty

                          Which will provide tremendous peace of mind for its customers when they go out of business for good in a year or two, but hey, 1-2 years out of 29 ain't bad. :P



                          with less annual degradation,

                          LOL.



                          and their installed panels have lasted for well over 20 years in the real world.

                          That's great, but when you have a company with such a shaky financial standing, you're stuck with unbridled optimism as your only recourse.



                          So, personally, I'm comfortable with the quality of both panels for 25+ years. One thing I don't like about Sunpower is the lack of micro inverters - I love that technology, but I can understand someone not being interested if they have zero shade issues. But I like the idea of fewer moving parts and knowing exactly how each panel is performing. With a string inverter, you don't know if one panel is underperforming (and maybe needs replacement) relative to the others, if the whole system is performing at the guaranteed level.
                          Yes, but with micro-inverters you now have 20+ points of failure instead of 1-2 central inverters. I've never been a fan of micro-inverters other than in cases of shading on a rooftop, I haven't seen any independent numbers that show any real noticeable benefit on an unshaded roof, particularly for the $0.40-$0.60 a watt price premium that gets tacked on....roughly $5000 for your average 10 kilowatt system. For that money you could replace about roughly 2 central inverters during that 25 year period. The other problem is most micro-inverter companies have been in business for less than 8 years and are offering warranties 3 times as long as their actual existence. I've also seen evidence here in Arizona that microinverters are markedly less effective in a hot environment, which makes sense if you think about it, every inverter will give up some amount of heat, you slap a microinverter on the back of a panel on top of a rooftop that's already reaching 170 degrees on the average summer day here and that additional heat is simply reducing the output of the panel further.

                          Also, when it comes to the microinverters, if you read their particular warranties, the warranties cover replacement of the microinverter units, but physically going up on the rooftop, removing the dysfunctional unit, and then installing the new unit are all on you. For some thats fine, for many others, that means now you have to find someone to pay to remove and replace the units.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            As far as Solarworld and SunPower go, I'm sorry, I see two companies headed in two completely different directions. SunPower stock is way up, their financials have improved, they are profitable, they are selling out their panels faster than they can manufacture them and they have clearly differentiated themselves in the market. Globally they are moving heavily into Japan, Saudi Arabia and other nations, along with their hefty financing from Total, I have full reason to believe that they will possess better longevity in the solar market than Solarworld who has continually failed to define and differentiate themselves in the market and are still losing huge chunks of money.


                            Take a look at the two companies recent financial reports.



                            You have SunPower


                            SunPower (SPWR), the No. 2 company by market cap in IBD's No. 1-ranked Energy-Solar industry group, vaulted higher on Tuesday ahead of its Wednesday after-the-close earnings report. Its stock is up almost 400% this year amid improving industry trends and the company's recent earnings growth, tied to its specialty of making especially efficient solar panels.

                            SunPower was up 4.5% in afternoon trading in the stock market Tuesday. Cowen & Co. analyst Robert Stone on Thursday raised his estimates for SunPower, which has increased its earnings growth the past two quarters. Stone now says the company can beat his Q2 EPS estimate of 9 cents on revenue of $75 million, and at least meet the consensus of 11 cents on $577 million. Its EPS has been 18 and 22 cents the prior two quarters.

                            http://news.investors.com/technology...ings-ahead.htm


                            And then you have Solarworld


                            SolarWorld AG (Bonn, Germany) has released financial results for the first half of 2013, reporting a 41% year-over-year fall in revenues to EUR 201 million (USD 266 million), a -34% operating margin and a net loss of EUR 82 million (USD 109 million).

                            The company confirmed figures released in mid-July 2013 which indicate that solar photovoltaic (PV) product shipments, including wafers, fell 30% year-over-year to 233 MW. The company recently received approval for a financial restructuring, and will be laying off 50 workers in its wafer factory in the U.S. state of Oregon.

                            http://www.solarserver.com/solar-mag...ts-prices.html

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KRenn View Post
                              Solarworld is in trouble, both in the U.S. and in Germany, these tariffs they pushed for are a last gasp effort that desperation has brought about.

                              $0.40-$0.60 a watt price premium that gets tacked on....roughly $5000 for your average 10 kilowatt system.

                              Also, when it comes to the microinverters, if you read their particular warranties, the warranties cover replacement of the microinverter units, but physically going up on the rooftop, removing the dysfunctional unit, and then installing the new unit are all on you. For some thats fine, for many others, that means now you have to find someone to pay to remove and replace the units.
                              Yes, Solarworld indeed in trouble financially. I'm not betting my money on their panels for sure.

                              As far as Enphase microinverter, you are wrong. Enphase does cover part and labor to replace broken unit that included going up rooftop. They have paid for 100% to replace 3 X M190 that fail in last 2 n some years for my friend .

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