Issues with PV/Batt/Net meter grid tie

[Saxxon]

I've been trying to get a system installed on my place for several months now. This is to be a 10Kw-12Kw system (depends on panel output and geometry as to what can fit) with battery backup, ideally Powerwall2 x3 if they are out. The parameters are it needs to be hooked to grid for net metering. This requires upgrading the incoming service from a 150a to 200a (but since there are several loads being added, it will be to 400a, 2x 200a wires). I've had a couple bids from some smaller installers that were ok but not with the panels I'd want (older, less efficient, maybe made in China - had experience with those, won't go there).

Basically comes down to Solar City vs a Sunpower installer.

Solar City the issue is getting the peripheral work tied into the project so it can be done under one loan, and for the 30% tax credit. The overall cost is about $56k with credit puts it right about $40k cost. However, they won't put the cost of the service upgrade from the utility to the project, meaning I have to pay out of pocket and possibly miss the tax credit on that portion. The panels are decent, Panasonic with around 19+% efficiency, but their geometry limits me to 10Kw and they do not install other than on the roof - no ground mount, outbuildings or porch roof.

Sunpower has higher efficiency panels 22+% that with the geometry would allow 12Kw on my roof, they will roll the utility upgrade into the project (can't net meter that size array without it) - but aside from a roughly $5k higher cost for the system, if I finance with a solar loan they tack on 15-19% more to the project cost making it just not practical. I notice Sunpower recently took a hit on sales & stock. Maybe they want to rethink that loan penalty, they'd have made another sale if it weren't for that.

Anyone know of a lender that gives a low rate that doesn't charge back to the installer?

[JSchnee21]

Welcome Saxxon, I assume you are relatively new to this board as this is your first post. Most folks here, myself included, would strongly suggest that you ditch the big name solar companies (Solar City / SunPower) and instead work with a reputable, well rated smaller local installer. You'll get better service, better pricing, and more flexibility.

With a small vendor you can easily choose between LG, Panasonic, Sunpower, or other (albeit lower efficiency) panels with either SolarEdge DC Optimizers (recommended) or Enphase Microinverters (so folks like, some have issues). You shouldn't have an issue finding an installer to do your panel upgrade -- but finding one to do the Tesla PowerWall2 AC storage might be a limiting factor.

Are you in California or another AHJ where line side taps are restricted? This would be an alternative to the panel upgrade from a PV perspective, But if you're adding loads and planning a UPS and non-UPS panel, you might still need to get an actual electrician to do the AC side as it might be too involved for many solar companies.

I suggest you check out EnergySage (www energysage com) to get bids and reviews of installers near you. If you let us know approximately where you live, there are often folks here on the board who can make a local installer recommendation. In fact, one recent poster is doing a PowerWall2 AC as well. PowerWalls are available, and some parts of California seem to have really good Local/Poco incentives/rebates. But I don't know what the lead time is on the actual equipment.

-Jonathan

[max2k]

I've been trying to get a system installed on my place for several months now. This is to be a 10Kw-12Kw system (depends on panel output and geometry as to what can fit) with battery backup, ideally Powerwall2 x3 if they are out. The parameters are it needs to be hooked to grid for net metering. This requires upgrading the incoming service from a 150a to 200a (but since there are several loads being added, it will be to 400a, 2x 200a wires). I've had a couple bids from some smaller installers that were ok but not with the panels I'd want (older, less efficient, maybe made in China - had experience with those, won't go there).

Basically comes down to Solar City vs a Sunpower installer.

Solar City the issue is getting the peripheral work tied into the project so it can be done under one loan, and for the 30% tax credit. The overall cost is about $56k with credit puts it right about $40k cost. However, they won't put the cost of the service upgrade from the utility to the project, meaning I have to pay out of pocket and possibly miss the tax credit on that portion. The panels are decent, Panasonic with around 19+% efficiency, but their geometry limits me to 10Kw and they do not install other than on the roof - no ground mount, outbuildings or porch roof.

Sunpower has higher efficiency panels 22+% that with the geometry would allow 12Kw on my roof, they will roll the utility upgrade into the project (can't net meter that size array without it) - but aside from a roughly $5k higher cost for the system, if I finance with a solar loan they tack on 15-19% more to the project cost making it just not practical. I notice Sunpower recently took a hit on sales & stock. Maybe they want to rethink that loan penalty, they'd have made another sale if it weren't for that.

Anyone know of a lender that gives a low rate that doesn't charge back to the installer?

you need to get up to speed on solar 101 and fast. There's Solar for Dummies book highly recommended around here. I just hope you haven't signed any papers yet. Please keep it this way until you'll be able to make decisions yourself clearly understanding reasons behind. Right now it sounds like you're going to be next victim of the solar industry less advertised practices.

[J.P.M.]

Saxxon: Do as you wish, and amen to free choice, but a respectful suggestion: If most bang for your buck has any role in your decision making, don't buy anything until you get a better understanding of what PV capabilities and, more importantly, PV limitations are. Two of your choices, Sunpower and SolarCity are maybe not the best choices for equipment and vendors. Sunpower, although good quality equipment, is way overpriced for what you get. SolarCity is a bottom feeder among vendors. Looks like you drank their advertising and hype koolaid.

Read the book as Max suggests, and know that use reduction and conservation is a way more cost effective way to reduce an electric bill than PV.

FWIW, storage can always be added later after those prices drop a lot. Right now, it's probably very cost ineffective for most applications.

Welcome to the neighborhood and the forum of few(er) illusions.

[Sunking]

Another Fool and their money about to part ways. Must be another Millennial.

[max2k]

Another Fool and their money about to part ways. Must be another Millennial.

Come on- he found this place and asked a question so there's a hope.

I think we don't even hear from 99% of them as they're too sure in their decisions to even bother with questions. It would require that thing- thinking, you know?

[JSchnee21]

Guys. guys. Come on be nice -- it must be 5 o-clock somewhere by now (for happy hour). No need to be mean. Besides since all of the Millennials are either under employed and living with Mom and Dad or have "settled" and convinced themselves they like renting an 800 square foot flat in some beat down urban slum . . . I mean gentrified trendy neighborhood (-: .. for $2k to 3k per month, it's not like they even own homes to put solar on . Much to the dismay of my property value (bought in 2006).

Regardless, we're supposed to be the nice guys who want to help people make sound investments and promote solar power. In the case of the OP, if he's considering upgrading to a 400amp service, his house must be much, much larger than mine. I've certainly never needed the 200 amp service I have in any of the houses I've lived in. (I realize this is probably more about the number of breakers/branch circuits and the limit on panel size). But balls to the wall I might be able to use 10 kW (41amps@240VAC) sustained, maybe 15kW peak (62.5 amps) if I turned on every electric device in my house.

-- Gen X Proud

[Sunking]

who want to help people make sound investments and promote solar power.

That is an oxymoron. Any off-grid system is a loss not only in terms of money, but also in terms of resources. There is no ROI or EROI.

[JSchnee21]

Off grid? I think the OP is intending to be grid-tied. But, you're right that the ROI on storage is still pretty sketchy, Though if he can get the same rebates as the other recent PowerWall 2 poster there's a chance he might break even before the batteries fail. To be fair, backup generators are only one step removed from a boat -- aka a hole in the water you throw money into So if the storage peace comes close to breaking even you're still ahead monetarily of a generator. But, I can run my genny all day and night (until I run out of gas). Never thought that would be an issue until Sandy )-:

[J.P.M.]

That is an oxymoron. Any off-grid system is a loss not only in terms of money, but also in terms of resources. There is no ROI or EROI.

I don't know if it's an oxymoron as much as a bunch of confused terms. I never wrote I wanted to help people make sound investments and promote solar energy.

I thought it was about helping people be informed about saving energy and helping folks see how solar energy can reduce energy bills in a sane way where possible, as well as pointing out some of the limitations of solar energy to perhaps help folks avoid getting ripped off and screwed.

Anyone who wants help with sound investments ought to get a financial advisor.

Those who want unvarnished reality about reducing energy bills and some experienced opinion and reality based information from those with no skin in the game, might want to stick around here, comb through the threads, separate the reality from the B.S. and spoor of the tree huggers, solar con artists and their shills that frequent this forum in far too great numbers, and learn.

[Sunking]

separate the reality from the B.S. and spoor of the tree huggers, solar con artists and their shills that frequent this forum in far too great numbers, and learn.

So you noticed how calm it has been since Dan got booted.

[J.P.M.]

So you noticed how calm it has been since Dan got booted.

For many reasons, all of them, I believe, good, and some of them selfish, I usually try not to bring him into the conversion except to call him out for some B.S.

But the answer to your question is yes. One big reason for the quiet, at least in the minds or some, may well be that you & I and some others don't need to call B.S. on his shenanigans when he's not around, spewing his regurgitations of mindless and mostly useless crap. So, some might argue that we're as much to blame for the fireworks as he is. So be it.

However, I consider Dan's behavior no more than a caricature, and the latest iteration of what I've seen from 40+ years of hanging around R.E. from opportunistic con men or fools driven more by myopic ego than reality, or any motivation that will help society. Whatever the motivation(s), deceitful, ego driven, naive or other, the outcome hurts people and also hurts R.E.

I damn such behavior.

[Sunking]

For many reasons, all of them, I believe, good, and some of them selfish, I usually try not to bring him into the conversion except to call him out for some B.S.

But the answer to your question is yes. One big reason for the quiet, at least in the minds or some, may well be that you & I and some others don't need to call B.S. on his shenanigans when he's not around, spewing his regurgitations of mindless and mostly useless crap. So, some might argue that we're as much to blame for the fireworks as he is. So be it.

However, I consider Dan's behavior no more than a caricature, and the latest iteration of what I've seen from 40+ years of hanging around R.E. from opportunistic con men or fools driven more by myopic ego than reality, or any motivation that will help society. Whatever the motivation(s), deceitful, ego driven, naive or other, the outcome hurts people and also hurts R.E.

I damn such behavior.

Problem is he will be back with Karrak.

[J.P.M.]

Problem is he will be back with Karrak.

To the extent I believe Dan's actions cause problems, I'll continue to call B.S. on them. His words may seem to cause less immediate potential damage than Karrak's, but IMO, their long term effects can be just as damaging and maybe more far reaching to the great unwashed masses. Since I try to keep my mouth shut with respect to areas where I'm ignorant, and because electrical engineering is not my areas of proficiency, with knowledge a bit beyond the basics, I mostly leave Karrak to you and others, knowing the task will be in good hands.

[sensij]

So you noticed how calm it has been since Dan got booted.

Almost as calm as it gets when you go on vacation. I miss those days.