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  • #16
    How about a SMALL wind project that will produce more in the way of information and educational value than power ? The instructional value for students can be quite high, such a project will probably be a way to spark intellectual curiosity and perhaps be a good learning experience for all, including those who came up with the idea who, I suspect, may be enamored of alternate energy and "know" that it's a good and practical thing, in spite of any practical or technical experience with respect to wind power.

    A smaller project could also be thought of as a proof of concept project, provided the idea of scaling could be handled in a reasonable way. Besides costing a lot less and probably being easier to make safe(r), if output and maintenance requirements are properly monitored, it'll give some indication of actual wind power production potential at the site.

    As others have wrote, I'd strongly suggest being mindful of local codes, authorities, and for you, pro bono or not, the liability issue, particularly if you're a P.E.

    Comment


    • #17
      adoublee I give up. There IS a code requirement which states "the wind turbine shall be installed 20' higher than anything within 300'" or something simliar. In your region it may not be a code, but for the vast majority of us in the US, it is a code requirement.

      SunEagle Thank you again for the helpful post. I am reading multiple suggestions to go to those two companies you've mentioned as well as Morningstar. I have sent correspondence to all of them.

      J.P.M. That is precisely what this is; an informational and educational project for the students (with instruction by their teacher) and for me, but more for me than for them as this is a pretty complex project. You've hit the nail on the head for your first paragraph as this is for a national competition regarding STEM growth in pre-college education.

      I am still in the early stages of planning and able to change direction for the project. I don't consider my time studying wind vs solar as a waste, because it is largely beneficial for my own education, which is what has lead to me offering this as Pro-Bono, particularly since the school couldn't afford a PE. Which, by the way, I am 3 years from reaching my licensure. There is a liability issue, but that is kept with the school rather than me, and I'm taking the proper steps to ensure that the liability is made clear.

      It is a tough project because they are so heavily suggesting wind power due to the many nearby wind farms and for that, I am trying my hardest to be able to provide information and direction for wind turbines. However, with your suggestion, and every one else in this thread, my research is quickly revisiting whether wind power is feasible or not. We have no obstructions due to it's location, and the wind average and speed is there, but the number of codes which I've encountered regarding wind turbine installation in addition to the increase complexity of a wind turbine design is quickly making me reconsider our options.

      Everyones responses and opinions are priceless, thank you all for the continued support.
      Last edited by idle; 02-22-2017, 01:24 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by idle View Post
        There IS a code requirement which states "the wind turbine shall be installed 20' higher than anything within 300'" or something simliar. In your region it may not be a code, but for the vast majority of us in the US, it is a code requirement.
        RIght. And if you put it 20' higher than any obstacle within a 300' radius it will meet code. Might not generate much power, but it will meet code. His advice to you was to get a taller tower so it generates more power.

        From my perspective you can do this one of two ways:

        1) Go high and large - get a 10kW machine (like a Bergey Excel) and get a tower that puts it far above any nearby interference. (i.e. more than 20 feet.) This means at LEAST 60 feet; 100 feet would be a much better idea. This will generate significant power depending on your wind potential.

        2) Go small and low - get one of those 100W things and put it on a 30 foot pole. You won't generate any meaningful power but it will be a conversation piece and something to show the kids. And it will be pretty cheap.

        Comment


        • #19
          jflorey2 Thank you. Your response was more clear in explaining the purpose of his message. I see what you're both saying; it is likely that this windmill will never be "in the wind" enough to create the power that we would anticipate. This is large item which I need to research.

          To add fuel to support your suggestions, there is a water tower within 100 ft. of the barn. It's approximate height might be close to 100', and the school cannot afford nor would they justify anything remotely close to that scale. So, that leads to your option 2 or everyone elses suggestion of "go solar".

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by idle View Post
            adoublee I give up. There IS a code requirement which states "the wind turbine shall be installed 20' higher than anything within 300'" or something simliar. In your region it may not be a code, but for the vast majority of us in the US, it is a code requirement.

            SunEagle Thank you again for the helpful post. I am reading multiple suggestions to go to those two companies you've mentioned as well as Morningstar. I have sent correspondence to all of them.

            J.P.M. That is precisely what this is; an informational and educational project for the students (with instruction by their teacher) and for me, but more for me than for them as this is a pretty complex project. You've hit the nail on the head for your first paragraph as this is for a national competition regarding STEM growth in pre-college education.

            I am still in the early stages of planning and able to change direction for the project. I don't consider my time studying wind vs solar as a waste, because it is largely beneficial for my own education, which is what has lead to me offering this as Pro-Bono, particularly since the school couldn't afford a PE. Which, by the way, I am 3 years from reaching my licensure. There is a liability issue, but that is kept with the school rather than me, and I'm taking the proper steps to ensure that the liability is made clear.

            It is a tough project because they are so heavily suggesting wind power due to the many nearby wind farms and for that, I am trying my hardest to be able to provide information and direction for wind turbines. However, with your suggestion, and every one else in this thread, my research is quickly revisiting whether wind power is feasible or not. We have no obstructions due to it's location, and the wind average and speed is there, but the number of codes which I've encountered regarding wind turbine installation in addition to the increase complexity of a wind turbine design is quickly making me reconsider our options.

            Everyones responses and opinions are priceless, thank you all for the continued support.
            I'm a big fan of R.E., but sometimes, or maybe even most of the time, folks with good, but no less ignorant intentions rule over experience and common sense. Maybe copying this thread and showing it to those who want a wind project will give them some food for thought. I've found it's cheaper to learn on paper (erasers are cheap), than on the ground. Time, materials and labor are not (cheap).

            Still, watch your back. You're only a year into the profession as an I.E. Good luck.
            Last edited by J.P.M.; 02-22-2017, 01:53 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              wind is available with an average of 6-11 mph year round
              That's the end of the project. Look at the power curves for turbines, You may get 10w at 10 mph.

              complied-curves-1024x629.jpg

              http://scoraigwind.co.uk/2015/12/sco...ement-summary/

              5 m/s is about 10 Mph.
              Power harvest will be very low, barely enough to float batteries, till you get to large wind gen.

              conversion
              https://www.weather.gov/epz/wxcalc_windconvert

              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

              Comment


              • #22
                So, this could still be a "project" getting a small turbine like an air-x, rated couple hundred watts, smaller gear needed with it, also cheaper gear.
                Put it up so you can retrieve it easily for repairs.

                Needs charge controller
                electric brake module
                manual brake - rope thrown over blades
                dump load
                Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                Comment


                • #23
                  They do not call them Wind Turds for nothing.
                  MSEE, PE

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I used to work for a long term wind turbine manufacturer, Northern Power, which has been in wind since the seventies. Several of the engineers/designers had been there since the start. Many had wind turbines of various types (they started out rebuilding old Jacobs turbines) but few still had them running. They generally observed that after the inevitable rebuilds/replacements that it got old after awhile. The company now makes larger 100 KW "community" wind turbines. One of the very popular options is capability of "motoring" the wind turbine. When the turbine inevitably isn't running due to lack of wind due to poor/insufficient/fraudulent siting they can turn the blades slowly with grid power to make it look like the turbine is running. Ostensibly this feature was for moving the blades for maintenance but one of the designers observed that they could hook a photocell in the circuit so they didn't waste the power to turn them at night.

                    I see several wind turbine folks in VT that just left the remnants of their turbines up on the pole and lease the pole out for cell antennas. I expect the lease payments far exceed any power generated and someone else gets to climb the pole.

                    I live neat a mountain hut system in NH that have high mountain huts that are way off the grid in the woods. Most of the hits have PV systems and the exposed ones have wind turbines. They usually use the Air X turbines. They replace them on frequent occasion as they just don't hold up but their guests sort of expect them and the noise associated with them.

                    Document the heck out of the system and expect that the day you walk away from the project that its lifetime is limited. Far better to figure out a way to go with PV
                    Last edited by peakbagger; 02-23-2017, 09:30 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      J.P.M. Thank you for your kind words and advice. I have voiced my concerns with the Wind Turbine system to the project lead but it appears that we will proceed with it. That is okay, but I will continue to head my warnings for the safety issues presented in this thread as well continue to educate myself on solar, should the need arise for that avenue later.

                      Mike90250 Thank you Mike. We have yet to receive hard data on the wind turbine and the alternator itself, but once that comes in, it could prove to be a more substantial reality check to the project lead. However, I do appreciate the information you've shared. It is a concern for wind speed and being able to actually 'see' the wind speed that we predict. I'm not entirely sure we would see the 6-11mph that I've mentioned previously, that assumed we are able to get into turbulent-free air which would required a substantially tall tower. I do agree on your small-scale project but I believe that they are so adamant on building this with a wind turbine that would only want one capable of 1kW rather than a small 100w turbine.


                      Sunking We do have local wind turbine farms which have MW turbines; but it's interesting really because we are such a small project that we can't really profit from 'economy of scale': height of the tower, size of the blades, size of the generators, and size of the electrical equipment. It seems that there is some theoretical minimum for the power output of the turbine to make this a feasible system from a budget standpoint; meaning, it can be so small that it's not worth our time.

                      peakbagger Thank you for the information. My plans on documentation are to be as thorough as possible once we get a hard, defined stage of design. I am very interested to see where we go from here.

                      As always, thank you again everyone for the continued support. My research and your input is priceless and I'm learning new information everyday. Thank you all. More to come.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by idle View Post
                        Sunking We do have local wind turbine farms which have MW turbines; but it's interesting really because we are such a small project that we can't really profit from 'economy of scale': height of the tower, size of the blades, size of the generators, and size of the electrical equipment. It seems that there is some theoretical minimum for the power output of the turbine to make this a feasible system from a budget standpoint; meaning, it can be so small that it's not worth our time.
                        OK so look at them and see what we mean must clear all ground obstructions and trees. You have to ge tup 200 feet ot more to clear ground turbulence and get into clear air. Take a look at the trees on one of the USA largest Wind Farms. This is in North Text starting in Muenster and goes west for 50 miles with over 700 tower using 1.8 Mw generators. You have to look close to spot the trees.




                        MSEE, PE

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                          OK so look at them and see what we mean must clear all ground obstructions and trees. You have to ge tup 200 feet ot more to clear ground turbulence and get into clear air. Take a look at the trees on one of the USA largest Wind Farms. This is in North Text starting in Muenster and goes west for 50 miles with over 700 tower using 1.8 Mw generators. You have to look close to spot the trees.



                          When I was in upper Wisconsin a couple of years ago in March I drove past a farm with 2 wind turbines. They were probably 80 feet tall and while there weren't any trees close there was a single story building off to the side. They looked like they were spinning pretty nice but I doubt they were bigger than 10kW each.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I'll try to cut a book story to fit here. Half a decade ago a couple educators from a village across the county
                            had gotten some grant $, and decided to spend it on a used about 100KW turbine. With no land they'd put
                            it right in the center of the playground; its "educational". At the zoning I pointed out the risk from this big
                            industrial machine or anything (ice) falling off it on their kids, didn't matter. Now I often drive by it, completely
                            stationary. Seems they didn't have the money to hook it up and run it.

                            Turbines need to go where there is a lot of wind and few people, not here in NW IL. However some outfits
                            have managed to build dozens anyway. It seems that they build, grab the subsidy, sell out, and leave
                            someone else holding the bag. The concrete foundation is so huge its impossible to recover the land.

                            Now someone is trying to build a rail bypass of Chicago, maybe it will be the same routine. Bruce Roe

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by bcroe View Post
                              It seems that they build, grab the subsidy, sell out, and leave someone else holding the bag.
                              That is ow it works, Just ask Dan. Build a POS system using tax payer money, sell it for a profit, and let tax payers and suckers take the losses. Classic Scam, legal, in the name of the Green Mafia. All it does is raise electric rates and no need for the power.
                              Last edited by Sunking; 02-24-2017, 12:02 AM.
                              MSEE, PE

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hello Everyone,
                                I make my living selling solar pv in central New Hampshire, so like most of you I'm very partial to pv. However not very far from my home are a dozen newly installed industrial turbines and this reall piques my curiousity about hybrid wind and solar installations. Idle, you may find these two links to be valuable resources;
                                www.pika-energy.com & www.altestore.com/video
                                Pika makes an excellent hybrid package, and AltE has two videos concerning Pika. The second video in particular may be useful to review with your students because it shows a disassembled generator. That video also shows both lead acid and Aquion batteries connected to a hybrid system by way of two separate charge controllers. Both stacks are 48 volt but it is unusual to see mixed battery types. If you haven't chosen your battery type yet I highly recommend the Aquions.
                                Peter
                                Last edited by Mike90250; 02-25-2017, 12:40 AM. Reason: un-linked URL's Moderator

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