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  • #31
    Depends on if one considers a dollar not sent to The State money payment from other taxpayers. I'm sure the LA Times considers all money The State's and is upset Musk was given the opportunity to keep more if it than others. Whoever has not claimed a single tax credit or deduction can throw the first stone I suppose.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by adoublee View Post
      Depends on if one considers a dollar not sent to The State money payment from other taxpayers. I'm sure the LA Times considers all money The State's and is upset Musk was given the opportunity to keep more if it than others. Whoever has not claimed a single tax credit or deduction can throw the first stone I suppose.
      That also might depend, to some degree, on where one throws the stone(s).

      It's possible to carry a general opinion about a concept in one's head and still recognize realities.

      I'm generally against gov. getting into anything or anyone's life via the tax code - from tax breaks for oil co's. down to individual tax deductions for having a bunch of kids, and mortgage interest deduction, or tax breaks/credits for individual choices like residential solar (or big outfits like Solyndra, Tesla, as well as Exxon/Mobile, etc.).

      But, like most everyone else, I try to not leave money on the table. So, I snagged a 30% fed. tax credit and $0.20/PTC Watt from the state for my PV to bring the cost a bit closer to what the array probably would have cost if the tax credit/incentive didn't exist. If that's hypocrisy, so be it. I call it reality.

      The world would, IMO, be generally better off with less governmental manipulation of opinion and lifestyles via the tax code and other measures. Some stuff for the common good perhaps as a matter of necessity and emergency, but more of an exception rather than an expectation, that seems to me anyway, to quickly and usually morph into a sense of entitlement that does no one good.

      To those who believe that federal or state, or any gov. incentives or solar tax breaks benefit home owners much, if at all, I've got a bridge for sale.
      Last edited by J.P.M.; 01-26-2017, 01:33 PM.

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      • #33
        JPM I take a little different view on Tax Subsidies then you do. Perhaps because I see the bigger picture. Everyone likes to beat up on fossil fuel energy companies. I get it and understand because it is easy, but also very short sighted and somewhat ignorant rantings from Green Mafia.

        Let's put it another way. What if I offered you a guaranteed investment opportunity no questions asked, ifs, ands, or buts for every dollar you invest right now with me, I pay you back $10 one year today in cash and you have to take it. I will also give you the option at the end of that period to do it again and offer you the same deal again every year thereafter. Would you jump on that deal?

        You do not have to answer, you are no fool, but 80% of the public is. Only the goberment gets that deal with subsidies to fossil fuel industry in O,G, and E industry. I cal that an investment of a lifetime only the goberment gets. Fossile fuel energy is a huge money maker for the government. The actual profit margins of the energy companies themselves is a razor thin 5 to 6% which is pale in comparison to other industries like soda pop 17%. It is only our demand and consumption that makes the numbers large. Not their doing, just meeting demands.

        Subsidies in RE is a money looser with no return to the goberment. There are even hidden losses no one wants to talk about. Care to guess what those losses are. Can you say gasoline road tax for EV's and electricity taxes not collected on home solar users? All those EV guys are not paying a dime to use the roads. Guess who gets to make up for the losses?

        I am all for goberment subsidies that make the goberment money.In biz that is called an Investment. Even student loans and SBA are money makers. Sure the return on interest is punny, but that is not the point. The taxes in higher paying jobs are more jobs make a windfall profit for the gobermrnet for years to come. The 40 year old man flipping burgers is a burden on the tax payers and blames everyone else for his troubles. The problem I have is the goberment is trying to pick winners and chasing US jobs and manufacturing out of the country. 20% of us know that, the other 80% blame the 20% who know better and learned how to adapt and play the game. Time for a huge change. or else loose everything.

        Most biz are honest. But there are those that game the tax system and Musk is a master crook gaiming the goberment and tax payers. I wa sa fan 12 years ago, then I did my homework before investing in TSLA a few years ago. Like Worldcom and Enron, he cooks the books using investors money to cover expenses, and taking subsidies to put in his pockets. Some $6 billion and counting.
        Last edited by Sunking; 01-26-2017, 02:20 PM.
        MSEE, PE

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sunking View Post

          I am all for goberment subsidies that make the goberment money.
          Well isn't that progressive now.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by adoublee View Post

            Well isn't that progressive now.
            No that would be wise.

            MSEE, PE

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Sunking View Post
              JPM I take a little different view on Tax Subsidies then you do. Perhaps because I see the bigger picture. Everyone likes to beat up on fossil fuel energy companies. I get it and understand because it is easy, but also very short sighted and somewhat ignorant rantings from Green Mafia.

              Let's put it another way. What if I offered you a guaranteed investment opportunity no questions asked, ifs, ands, or buts for every dollar you invest right now with me, I pay you back $10 one year today in cash and you have to take it. I will also give you the option at the end of that period to do it again and offer you the same deal again every year thereafter. Would you jump on that deal?

              You do not have to answer, you are no fool, but 80% of the public is. Only the goberment gets that deal with subsidies to fossil fuel industry in O,G, and E industry. I cal that an investment of a lifetime only the goberment gets. Fossile fuel energy is a huge money maker for the government. The actual profit margins of the energy companies themselves is a razor thin 5 to 6% which is pale in comparison to other industries like soda pop 17%. It is only our demand and consumption that makes the numbers large. Not their doing, just meeting demands.

              Subsidies in RE is a money looser with no return to the goberment. There are even hidden losses no one wants to talk about. Care to guess what those losses are. Can you say gasoline road tax for EV's and electricity taxes not collected on home solar users? All those EV guys are not paying a dime to use the roads. Guess who gets to make up for the losses?

              I am all for goberment subsidies that make the goberment money.In biz that is called an Investment. Even student loans and SBA are money makers. Sure the return on interest is punny, but that is not the point. The taxes in higher paying jobs are more jobs make a windfall profit for the gobermrnet for years to come. The 40 year old man flipping burgers is a burden on the tax payers and blames everyone else for his troubles. The problem I have is the goberment is trying to pick winners and chasing US jobs and manufacturing out of the country. 20% of us know that, the other 80% blame the 20% who know better and learned how to adapt and play the game. Time for a huge change. or else loose everything.

              Most biz are honest. But there are those that game the tax system and Musk is a master crook gaiming the goberment and tax payers. I wa sa fan 12 years ago, then I did my homework before investing in TSLA a few years ago. Like Worldcom and Enron, he cooks the books using investors money to cover expenses, and taking subsidies to put in his pockets. Some $6 billion and counting.
              H.U.A. (or Read U.A.), and accepted as valid and knowledgeable opinion, but I believe I see a bigger picture yet. More later.

              Later:

              I don't intend or mean to imply or have others infer that I'm singling out oil/gas, or power, or any portion of the economy in particular. Overall, I simply don't believe in government interference in business or in anyone's life, whatever the cost or gain for anyone or anything.

              As you know, I'm a big fan of R.E, but the U.S. ITC and other such tax schemes have, IMO, only hurt R.E. progress, much like parents doing their children harm by not allowing them to grow up. As long as gov. continues to subsidize the R.E. industry it will continue to live in the government's basement. That will prevent a maturing industry and real progress that only a mature R.E. industry can produce. Lot of other benefits as well. Like prices and better quality that come from real competition.

              As you also know, I've owned and bailed on solar stocks. I still own some issues. I'm also one of those folks who has stock in oil/gas and utilities through sector ETF's. For the long haul, they pay well. I believe in buying what you know and for the most part, holding on to it. Oil and energy will continue to do well. But, to the extent that the gov. and the companies do well as you suggest, and there being no free lunch, the bill goes to the consumer, or at least the 80% of them (as you seem to be suggesting) who are foolish enough to continue their ignorance that allows continued profligate use of energy and then throwing money they may not have, or need elsewhere at expensive and least cost effective PV peddled by conmen.

              Don't know for sure, but I'm of the opinion the oil co's might pay better, and be better off - as would we all - IN THE LONG RUN - if the tax code stayed out of it beyond some form of uniform flat tax for EVERYONE - no exemptions/deductions/considerations - period - with the whole thing run as a % of gross income and a constitutional amendment for a balanced budget with excess governmental tax revenue refunded to taxpayers, and a fine for those who do not vote (or a cash incentive for those who do), and we all get to vote on the federal budget 1X/yr.

              Otherwise, get the government out of meddling in business, and out of everyone's private life as well - stop trying to legislate and force public opinion and morality down everyone's throat - for good or not - through the tax code. I'd need to give up things the gov. does that I think are good but that some others probably think is tantamount to subsidizing immoral behavior. Others would need to do the same. I can always put my largess where I want.

              An example: Some folks don't like depletion allowances for oil companies. Others don't like agricultural price supports or farmers. Others like or don't like both.

              I say get the gov. out of most everything with a much narrower definition of what "promote the general welfare" actually means.

              Seems to me that your thoughts above are more points for why I think things would be better without gov. and it's meddling with people's choices through the tax code.

              Respectfully,
              Last edited by J.P.M.; 01-26-2017, 06:28 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                H.U.A. (or Read U..), and accepted as valid and knowledgeable opinion, but I believe I see a bigger picture yet. More later.
                No need JPM, we understand each other. I just needed to remind you. Its all FUBAR today. reality does not exist anymore.
                MSEE, PE

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sunking View Post

                  No need JPM, we understand each other. I just needed to remind you. Its all FUBAR today. reality does not exist anymore.
                  FWIW, see todays epistle/rant, written before your 1423 hrs. response.

                  Agree in spades w/FUBAR opinion on the state of things, and, even though off topic, your prior comment that the Eagle may not survive this one.

                  Apologies to the OP. SK & I have yanked/hijacked this thread way off topic.
                  Last edited by J.P.M.; 01-27-2017, 12:48 AM. Reason: Corrected time.

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                  • #39
                    FWIW, see todays epistle/rant, written before your 1443 hrs. response
                    Yeah I am done with that idiot. You cannot save people from themselves. I deleted all relevant information last night that you cannot see. All the drawings and wasted time trying to help a fool.

                    Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                    Apologies to the OP. SK & I have yanked/hijacked this thread way off topic.
                    Dito. I agree. I am out of this one.
                    Last edited by Sunking; 01-26-2017, 09:11 PM.
                    MSEE, PE

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                    • #40
                      Another site is reporting Musk has stabbed SolarEdge and StorEdge owners in the back and killed the DC Powerwall 2. If true, essentially no information Tesla puts out is to be believed.

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                      • #41
                        Howdy Y'all

                        I found this info on the powerwall its not a bad read, https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/...rsion-delayed/

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                        • #42
                          Sunking was right...

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                          • #43
                            I'm looking at doing a DIY / affordable Powerwall setup. I'm researching solutions consisting of ~21kWh of lithium batteries to supply power to the house overnight, and as continuous in-line UPS in case of power outages. For some background, I have an existing 41-module setup using microinverters, each array connects to it's own circuit in a subpanel in my garage, then to my main panel.

                            https://easyview.auroravision.net/ea...tityId=7466210

                            I found this on Youtube...I could add another 9 modules to the WSW facing back of my garage wall (below the 15-module garage roof array), and replicate this fairly easily. The "DIY powerwall", inverter, charge controller, etc would be on the other side of this wall.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...&v=qun4F5hmCHk

                            What I'd rather do is use some or all of my existing arrays except that AC is coming in from them. I could go with a whole-house UPS, however I want an on-line solution where the battery constantly back-fills power to meet demand when the sun isn't shining. I know this will be spendy, and that it may never pay for itself. It's more of a fun project with the goal of sticking it to the man who pays me about 4 cents per kWh I export, and charges me 9 cents when the sun isn't shining.

                            All ideas + input is welcomed. Thanks!
                            oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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