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Grid tied solar with batteries and no net metering agreement

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  • Grid tied solar with batteries and no net metering agreement

    I am new here and am researching options for solar in Las Vegas, NV. Recently the regulators here changed the net metering agreement so that anyone with solaring and a net metering agreement gets charged a higher monthly customer rate and lower credit for power sent to grid than what it cost to purchase power. My understanding is that it is not solar that they are taxing but the net metering agreement.

    I am currently on the grid with NV Energy without solar and I am thinking is it possible to install solar with battery backup but without a net metering agreement. So the idea is use power generated from solar during the day as it is needed. Excess stored in batteries and then at night use that up then after that get it from the power company but send no power to them.

    The benefit of such a system is that shouldn't have to pay a higher customer fee to power company or get short changed on power sent to them because won't send any to them. In my city there is no option to leave the power company without paying a substantial fee.

    I am just wondering if this is possible with current electronic power meter and if so what sort of equipment or if it is even worthwhile.
    Last edited by chunkymonkey; 07-31-2016, 08:27 PM.

  • #2
    it is possible, yes. Questionable if it is economical, but possible.
    It can even in a few cases be done without a battery (no storage but use power from solar, and not feed in).
    It can be done with SolarEdge, OutBack, and Xantrex.
    OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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    • #3
      Very very foolish. Any power from a battery is going to cost you 4 to 7 times more than the power company charges. So ask yourself why you want to pay 75-cents per Kwh from a battery with a extremely limited supply, when you can buy all you want for 12-cents per Kwh from the POCO.

      Basically you are saying I want to go to the casino and loose $100 at the tables for a $10 meal comp or drink ticket. Only tourist should be that foolish.
      Last edited by Sunking; 07-31-2016, 08:37 PM.
      MSEE, PE

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      • #4
        Wow, fast reply! So I'm guessing some hardware is placed between NV Energy meter and circuit breaker or solar panels.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sunking View Post
          Very very foolish. Any power from a battery is going to cost you 4 to 7 times more than the power company charges. So ask yourself why you want to pay 75-cents per Kwh from a battery with a extremely limited supply, when you can buy all you want for 12-cents per Kwh from the POCO.

          Basically you are saying I want to go to the casino and loose $100 at the tables so I can eat a $10 meal for free. Only tourist should be that foolish.
          75cents a KWH sounds high, is that what it is going to cost with batteries? From what I've been seeing online people are using 6volt golf cart batteries for this but then there is Tesla stuff coming out too.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by chunkymonkey View Post
            75cents a KWH sounds high, is that what it is going to cost with batteries? From what I've been seeing online people are using 6volt golf cart batteries for this but then there is Tesla stuff coming out too.
            It is the batteries. With Flooded Lead Acid you are looking at 60 to 90-cent per Kwh. Tesla so called batteries will be twice that.

            When you look at the price of the batteries, the amount of electricity they yield over their life time will be many multiples higher than what you can buy it for. In other words a $5000 battery that gets replaced in 3 to 5 years only provides you with $1000 worth of electricity. Invest that same $5000 will pay you $6000 in 3 to 5 years so you can pay your electric bill.
            Last edited by Sunking; 07-31-2016, 08:43 PM.
            MSEE, PE

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sunking View Post
              It is the batteries. With Flooded Lead Acid you are looking at 5 to 75-cent per Kwh. Tesla so called batteries will be twice that.

              When you look at the price of the batteries, the amount of electricity they yeild over thir life time will be many multiples higher than what you can buy it for.

              And if you use the flooded lead batteries every night, then life of battery is shortened greatly I would suppose.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by chunkymonkey View Post
                75cents a KWH sounds high,.
                Yes it is high, I pay just under 7-cents in Panama, and family pays around 7-cents in OK and TX
                MSEE, PE

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                • #9
                  The problem is that power company is making it very difficult for solar. The fixed customer fee in about three years is going to jump to $38 up from $12.75 now for non solar customers. I use no more than $120 in power a month and that is at summer peak. I think rate is about 12.5 cents per KWH now here but that is diving my total bill by KWH used so includes a bunch of taxes and customer fee.

                  Also net metering agreement here with credits doesn't apply towards monthly fee so people here always pay that no matter how much power sent to utility from what I've read.
                  Last edited by chunkymonkey; 07-31-2016, 08:58 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by chunkymonkey View Post

                    75cents a KWH sounds high, is that what it is going to cost with batteries? From what I've been seeing online people are using 6volt golf cart batteries for this but then there is Tesla stuff coming out too.
                    The price of the Tesla may even be more than 75cents per kWh. The problem is that with the more exotic battery chemistry you may get longer life but you also pay for it. Wait a few years until that battery gets mass produced. Then it might become competitive with other batteries but it will still be much more than the average cost of a kWh that your POCO will charge you.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                      The price of the Tesla may even be more than 75cents per kWh. The problem is that with the more exotic battery chemistry you may get longer life but you also pay for it. Wait a few years until that battery gets mass produced. Then it might become competitive with other batteries but it will still be much more than the average cost of a kWh that your POCO will charge you.

                      Yeah, I can't imagine Tesla selling fancy streamlined battery pack for a lower price than an ugly box of car / golf batteries. What about NIMH?

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                      • #12
                        There is also an option here for time of use which gives lower rates at night and higher during day so highest rate is 1PM-7PM which is probably good time for solar then buy power at night at reduced rate.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by chunkymonkey View Post
                          There is also an option here for time of use which gives lower rates at night and higher during day so highest rate is 1PM-7PM which is probably good time for solar then buy power at night at reduced rate.
                          A battery system will be more attractive for anyone that has high electric rates as well as TOU rates where it is lower at night then during the day.

                          There are also a lot of different battery chemistries to look at which reflect different price ranges but don't forget to add the cost of installation to determine the $/kWh for your system. Also the battery life will be based on the number of "cycles" and depth of each cycle. But don't always believe what they advertise as the life time because the true life may is probably much less which can mean a much higher price in the long run.

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