30% tax credit on solar generation and grid-connected batteries?

[cracovian]

Sonnen has batteries that come with own inverters that require to be connected to the grid and work with all microinverters or whatever your renewable setup might be.

Provided they're part of the system and are interconnected, why wouldn't they qualify for the tax credit? Would Powerwall ever qualify?

[ButchDeal]

Sonnen has batteries that come with own inverters that require to be connected to the grid and work with all microinverters or whatever your renewable setup might be.

Provided they're part of the system and are interconnected, why wouldn't they qualify for the tax credit? Would Powerwall ever qualify?

Sonnens system is a packaged up Outback inverter and batteries that can be AC coupled (tacked on) to any grid tie inverter. It is not an energy source and has no way of qualifying for the federal ITC. They also do NOT in any way allow the system to be DC coupled, so no adding Charge controllers. Of course if they did allow this then technically it would qualify for the ITC, BUT they don't.

The Powerwall solution uses a SolarEdge inverter that is grid tied does all the work of the solar etc. Because there are not two different systems doing two different things, the solaredge inverter DOES qualify for ITC, just not the powerwall itself.

[cracovian]

Great info, Butch - Thank you!

Here's more shocking info I learned today

First of all, renvu.com started selling Sonnen eco hardware; it's about twice the cost ($10K for 4 kWh) of the announced company pricing.

A local energy conservation company rep quoted me $14K for the 4 kWh system installed and $25K for 16 kWh. They had no Pro pricing (starting at 24 kWh) but they'll get back to me.

If that's not shocking enough, they're pushing end-of-year installs to be able to qualify for the 30% "Fuel Cells & Microturbines" tax credit which they state the batteries are good for. W00t!

The last shocking fact is that Sonnen will automatically disconnect from the grid during outages, it will provide backup, and enable solar production to continue. This is different from everything I've read about Sonnen solution so far.

Any thoughts or comments?

[ButchDeal]

Great info, Butch - Thank you!

Here's more shocking info I learned today

First of all, renvu.com started selling Sonnen eco hardware; it's about twice the cost ($10K for 4 kWh) of the announced company pricing.

A local energy conservation company rep quoted me $14K for the 4 kWh system installed and $25K for 16 kWh. They had no Pro pricing (starting at 24 kWh) but they'll get back to me.

If that's not shocking enough, they're pushing end-of-year installs to be able to qualify for the 30% "Fuel Cells & Microturbines" tax credit which they state the batteries are good for. W00t!

CHECK with your tax advisor on that!

The last shocking fact is that Sonnen will automatically disconnect from the grid during outages, it will provide backup, and enable solar production to continue. This is different from everything I've read about Sonnen solution so far.

Any thoughts or comments?

Why is it shocking? this is exactly what one would expect since the whole system is based on an Outback inverter that does EXACTLY that.
It is just an OutBack inverter AC coupled to a Grid Tie inverter with Sonnen batteries.

[cracovian]

The rep came back and it's all less shocking now.

The disconnect came from him quoting "Eco Protect" pricing and me expecting "Eco Compact" features (or lack of) and 40% lower MSRP. However, that simplified product is not available until the 4th Q of 2016 which is why I was surprised that they would quote and sell it to me when I expressed interest.

And yes, he did confirm he was wrong trying to entice me with that fuel cell tax credit but now he could bundle two solar panels for extra $6K, so I could scam the gov't and get my $6K back from the "packaged $20K deal." Wow...

They "closed the file on me" until I let them know when I'm interested again. Good riddance

[jflorey2]

First of all, renvu.com started selling Sonnen eco hardware; it's about twice the cost ($10K for 4 kWh) of the announced company pricing.

A local energy conservation company rep quoted me $14K for the 4 kWh system installed and $25K for 16 kWh. They had no Pro pricing (starting at 24 kWh) but they'll get back to me.

If that's not shocking enough, they're pushing end-of-year installs to be able to qualify for the 30% "Fuel Cells & Microturbines" tax credit which they state the batteries are good for. W00t!

The last shocking fact is that Sonnen will automatically disconnect from the grid during outages, it will provide backup, and enable solar production to continue. This is different from everything I've read about Sonnen solution so far.

The Sonnen system is nice but very pricey, and it's just a Radian inverter, a bunch of Fortelion batteries and a massive AC transfer switch inside a big enclosure. (Also a lot of monitoring and control bits and pieces.)

[adoublee]

Sonnen has batteries that come with own inverters that require to be connected to the grid and work with all microinverters or whatever your renewable setup might be.

Provided they're part of the system and are interconnected, why wouldn't they qualify for the tax credit? Would Powerwall ever qualify?

I have seen suggested that batteries qualify for ITC when deployed with a new PV system and it is charged 100% from PV. What I have shows 22.5% if charged 75% from PV, and nothing less than that. Source cited was Deloitte. The Sonnen battery is AC couple only, so I guess proof of charging from be would be in the form of monitoring both and ensuring charging only occurs when and at the magnitude PV is generating.

[cracovian]

The Sonnen system is nice but very pricey, and it's just a Radian inverter, a bunch of Fortelion batteries and a massive AC transfer switch inside a big enclosure. (Also a lot of monitoring and control bits and pieces.)

This is exactly what they were selling ($10K MSRP plus $4.7K to install).

I signed up to get more info about the upcoming Eco Compact system that has no backup capabilities but they've mismanaged the whole thing and told me that backup itself is so nice that it's worth a few thousand dollars.

Apparently, their business is so good they don't envision getting into the cheap stuff when it arrives in the fourth quarter

[ButchDeal]

I have seen suggested that batteries qualify for ITC when deployed with a new PV system and it is charged 100% from PV. What I have shows 22.5% if charged 75% from PV, and nothing less than that. Source cited was Deloitte. The Sonnen battery is AC couple only, so I guess proof of charging from be would be in the form of monitoring both and ensuring charging only occurs when and at the magnitude PV is generating.

An AC coupled system is superfluous to the pv system an in no way required. As such it does not qualify for ITC incentive.

[cracovian]

Butch - Here's some VERY interesting reading on the subject. Adoublee seems to be correct: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/...rcent-itc.html

[cracovian]

Butch - I can't post a link to the article from Renewable Energy World (2/17/2016 by Susan Kraemer) but the IRS clarified storage rules for ITC at the end of 2015 and it looks like Adoublee is quite correct and, as long as batteries (or any other storage, even heat) get charged by at least 75% solar, then they're eligible. Very cool!

[ButchDeal]

Butch - Here's some VERY interesting reading on the subject. Adoublee seems to be correct: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/...rcent-itc.html

I disagree. If you do an AC coupled system then you really have two different systems. System A is a solar grid tie system that is eligible for ITC, and system B is a battery backup system that ties in. System B is not needed for the PV system to work in any way. It is only there for backup. System B really has little to do with system A other than it can turn system A on and off.

So in other words System A is a PV system that qualifies for the alternative energy system
System B is a UPS and has nothing to do with the ITC as it is not an alternative energy system....

[adoublee]

So in other words System A is a PV system that qualifies for the alternative energy system
System B is a UPS and has nothing to do with the ITC as it is not an alternative energy system....

What about an AC coupled off-grid system?

If the language doesn't talk about "DC coupled systems", I don't see why proving the battery is charging only when solar is producing and equal or greater amount of charging power with metering wouldn't provide compliance. There is no way to track electrons, but that's not really the intent IMO.

[ButchDeal]

well an AC coupled off grid system is just all kinds of crazy.

the reason is that you have two different systems. One is PV the other is a UPS. the ITC is only a renewable energy incentive not a UPS incentive. the AC coupled battery systems is completely independent of the solar system and has just about nothing to do with it.

[ButchDeal]

Well think of it this way. I have a DC coupled bimodal system. It feeds my fridge and freezer, as well as water pump. I COULD if I wanted to insure that they only ever used solar power. In that way the water pump would be storing energy in the form of pressure in the tank, and the fridge and freezer would be storing in the form of thermal difference.
Do you feel that I should be able to claim my fridge, freezer and water pump on the ITC as AC coupled energy storage devices? They are AC coupled to my PV system by the way

[cracovian]

But in the end it's not about how anyone "feels" personally but it's about those slightly less vague rules from the IRS.

I'm just happy that there's a way to claim it though obviously it hasn't been publicized all over the place yet, so it's still not quite black and white.