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  • Looks like the hybrid system is what I want

    Good Morning all!! Looking to slowly get into the solar thing. First let me explain that I am not into solar because I hate coal, or that I think global warming is going to destroy the world, or even that solar is going to save us from those horrible oil corporations. I do like solar because it offers me options, and some independence.

    What is m looking for is a back up type system and the options seem overwhelming. I had a contractor (local) price me a system, grid tied only of course, and the cost almost made me puke. Grid tied only to me makes little to no sense, if I have solar panels but can't use them during a power failure, what's the point? Seems like a marketing save the world run on emotions ploy

    I want a system to start that I can piece together and get my critical house systems onto as a start, well pump, sump pump, furnace fan (it burns, oil, wood, or coal) and the fridge and a freezer. Eventually maybe get the whole house swapped but that's not critical. Is it possible to have the batteries and still tie to the grid and maybe make a little cash back?

    Seems to be a lot of knowledge here and I look forward to your help. FYI I am in NE Ohio and the system would probably be ground mounted as it seems my house is facing the wrong way . I am currently doing about 1200 kWh average a month.

  • #2
    Howdy Djcoak and welcome to Solar Panel Talk. Man you have a lot of reading to do

    Probably best to start reading in the off-grid section to start, try with...hang on and i will get you a link
    https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...ng-gen-support maybe then something like this,
    https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...with-batteries

    What you want to do while doable is going to be expensive if you can do some of the work yourself that will help a lot, read up and come back to us with some questions, good luck.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by solar pete View Post
      Howdy Djcoak and welcome to Solar Panel Talk. Man you have a lot of reading to do

      Probably best to start reading in the off-grid section to start, try with...hang on and i will get you a link
      https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...ng-gen-support maybe then something like this,
      https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...with-batteries

      What you want to do while doable is going to be expensive if you can do some of the work yourself that will help a lot, read up and come back to us with some questions, good luck.
      Thank you for the quick response. The goals may change some as I learn more, and that's the point of learning right?! Been reading a lot already and at least I am not wanting to run my AC and attic fan on the system......

      I did not include that I do also have a 3500w genny, however I want to keep that to lower use due to fuel usage and they make a lot of noise.....thus telling those around you, that you have a genny.......

      Been in two long term power outages, 2 weeks once and a week the other, the fen unit was nice but it's noisy, requires a lot of work and people kept "showing up" wanting things and they always said, we heard your gen and wanted to see if we could....... Luckily these were nice people when I turned them away but the gen had to stay locked up all the time in fear it would vanish, leaving my home without power for long periods of time.
      Last edited by Djcoak; 04-12-2016, 07:33 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        So reading those links and some others has been informative so far, here are the two situations I want to overcome:

        Dead of winter, at work, power dies due to whatever. I need as a min the furnace, sump, the fridge and freezer to self sustain

        August in summer, power dies. I would need those above just not the furnace obviously.

        House would be unmanned worst case 10 hours. Maybe the system powers those items above, but some lights might be nice als then I can use the genny to do my peak items such as the well pump. I could easily store a few days of water, mostly for the farm animals.

        The issue I am seeing or maybe not seeing, is that when not being used as a back up, what are the panels doing? Just hanging out? Or can I use that as supplemental power throughout the good times?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Djcoak View Post

          The issue I am seeing or maybe not seeing, is that when not being used as a back up, what are the panels doing? Just hanging out? Or can I use that as supplemental power throughout the good times?
          Bimodal systems feed back to the grid when not being used for backup, thus reducing your bill just like any other grid tie inverter system.
          OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Djcoak View Post
            Good Morning all!! Looking to slowly get into the solar thing. First let me explain that I am not into solar because I hate coal, or that I think global warming is going to destroy the world, or even that solar is going to save us from those horrible oil corporations. I do like solar because it offers me options, and some independence.

            What is m looking for is a back up type system and the options seem overwhelming. I had a contractor (local) price me a system, grid tied only of course, and the cost almost made me puke. Grid tied only to me makes little to no sense, if I have solar panels but can't use them during a power failure, what's the point? Seems like a marketing save the world run on emotions ploy

            I want a system to start that I can piece together and get my critical house systems onto as a start, well pump, sump pump, furnace fan (it burns, oil, wood, or coal) and the fridge and a freezer. Eventually maybe get the whole house swapped but that's not critical. Is it possible to have the batteries and still tie to the grid and maybe make a little cash back?

            Seems to be a lot of knowledge here and I look forward to your help. FYI I am in NE Ohio and the system would probably be ground mounted as it seems my house is facing the wrong way . I am currently doing about 1200 kWh average a month.
            I think you've understood that the battery power required to support 1200 kWh a month would be really, really expensive. Even limiting the critical loads to those you've identified is not going to be cheap. What you've misunderstood is that the grid-tied system (without batteries) is likely to be the only configuration that has any chance of lowering your cost of electricity, and even then it is likely to take many years to recover the upfront costs. Yeah, it is annoying that you don't have power when the grid goes down, but the extra costs associated with adding the battery capability moves the system firmly out of the "make a little cash back" camp and into the "spending lots of money for the perceived benefits of solar vs a generator".

            Originally posted by Djcoak View Post
            Been in two long term power outages, 2 weeks once and a week the other, the fen unit was nice but it's noisy, requires a lot of work and people kept "showing up" wanting things and they always said, we heard your gen and wanted to see if we could....... Luckily these were nice people when I turned them away but the gen had to stay locked up all the time in fear it would vanish, leaving my home without power for long periods of time.
            Solar panels aren't so easy to hide or lock up. If security is your thing, finding ways to isolate the sound of the generator would be a better choice.


            Originally posted by Djcoak View Post
            The issue I am seeing or maybe not seeing, is that when not being used as a back up, what are the panels doing? Just hanging out? Or can I use that as supplemental power throughout the good times?
            What you are not seeing is that if you select a capable inverter, the system will be grid interactive. Assuming you have some kind of net metering available, when the grid is up, the system will feed any power you don't consume back into the grid, just like any other grid-tied system. It is only when the grid goes down that the hybrid capability comes into play (beyond the easy float charge that the batteries will get in the grid-up state to keep them topped off).
            CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Djcoak View Post
              So reading those links and some others has been informative so far, here are the two situations I want to overcome:

              Dead of winter, at work, power dies due to whatever. I need as a min the furnace, sump, the fridge and freezer to self sustain

              August in summer, power dies. I would need those above just not the furnace obviously.

              House would be unmanned worst case 10 hours. Maybe the system powers those items above, but some lights might be nice also then I can use the genny to do my peak items such as the well pump. I could easily store a few days of water, mostly for the farm animals.
              These are very reasonable goals for a battery system and would require a much more reasonable battery bank. I would plan for 24 hour of usage on battery to help cover night time etc. A decent OutBack Radian set up with ~250 to 400Ah AGM would be a really nice solution. If you get the generator set up on auto start (for security it sounds like you would need it indoors with an exaust system).
              OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

              Comment


              • #8
                First, we'll need to know what size your loads are. Furnace, add up the burner ignitor (some glow coils use 300w to sense flame & 500w to ignite), flame blower motor, water pump, air circulation motor, whatever, What surge capacity is needed to start the stuff spinning ? Then when we know how much electricity you use, that gives the size of the battery needed. A smaller battery (2 hours run time) costs much less to replace every 6 years, than a 12 hour battery. Will the pipes freeze in the 4 hours it takes you to get home in a storm ? If so, you need an Auto-Start generator. You may need to consider a pad mount generator with residential muffler on it, but when your lights are on , the moths come flocking to the light.

                You cannot, under any city codes that I know of, install a generator indoors sharing a wall with a habitable building, the risk of Co poisoning is too great.
                Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Djcoak View Post

                  Thank you for the quick response. The goals may change some as I learn more, and that's the point of learning right?! Been reading a lot already and at least I am not wanting to run my AC and attic fan on the system......

                  I did not include that I do also have a 3500w genny, however I want to keep that to lower use due to fuel usage and they make a lot of noise.....thus telling those around you, that you have a genny.......

                  Been in two long term power outages, 2 weeks once and a week the other, the fen unit was nice but it's noisy, requires a lot of work and people kept "showing up" wanting things and they always said, we heard your gen and wanted to see if we could....... Luckily these were nice people when I turned them away but the gen had to stay locked up all the time in fear it would vanish, leaving my home without power for long periods of time.
                  First off I very much support solar. But if money is a concern then the easiest and probably the cheapest and most reliable way to keep power on for critical equipment would be to have a whole house generator prepped and ready to go should the grid go down. You don't even have to be home for it to automatically start up and provide power to critical loads.

                  I would use propane or natural gas type gen sets which makes it a lot easier to have a nice size tank at the house for long term outage.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To clarify some things about Bimodal/Grid-interactive inverters... as ButchDeal mentioned, they CAN feed back to the grid with hybrid inverters, or you can just power the loads that are connected to your inverter (assuming it is on a branch circuit), which still ultimately lowers your POCO power consumption. Every kWh made by your PV is one less you'll need to buy from the POCO. You might get some of your investment back doing so, but you won't be 'making money' anytime soon with that approach.

                    If Hybrid inverters are installed on a branch circuit off of your main panel and the inverter is grid-sell capable (and enabled), then any surplus PV power after the batteries are at charge, and the inverter loads are met... that power is "sold" back to the main panel, and is only truly "sold" back to the POCO if there is no demand on the rest of the main panel and one has a net metering agreement with the POCO. I'm not sure why anyone would sell all their PV to the POCO with a hybrid system vs self-consuming it first where the most savings can usually be found by reducing the POCO power.

                    So PV power coming into the inverter from the CCs if usually prioritized according to the demand of the following: Battery Float --> Inverter Loads --> Main Panel --> POCO. Of course the POCO is not truly "demand", but any surplus power does end up there (or you can simply turn this off, but you'll also be self-consuming much less because you're not sending any power to the main panel. In smaller systems, the amount truly going to the POCO is likely very small under normal circumstances BTW.

                    A good idea is to alter your usage habits to time your high-demand loads form your main panel with your best solar hours. This way, most, if any surplus PV is able to be used by your main panel circuits that are not normally fed from the inverter.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gmanInPA View Post
                      A good idea is to alter your usage habits to time your high-demand loads form your main panel with your best solar hours. This way, most, if any surplus PV is able to be used by your main panel circuits that are not normally fed from the inverter.
                      This is only a good idea to the extent that the power company tariffs support it. With some forms of net metering, there might not be any incentive to shift loads. In TOU rate plans, it might work against you to increase self-consumption because cloudy days could actually become more expensive.

                      Different inverters and system designs have different capabilities... it is hard to generalize at this point about what might be the best consumption pattern without more information.
                      CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I had to go get my special reading glasses on, thank you all for the input and suggestions.

                        Let me answer some questions

                        1. In the winter I would only need really the blower on my furnace to run. It's a tri fuel and cold starting it is pretty easy. If I am running coal, the house stays 73 degrees 24/7. Running wood it would never get to the freezing point in the time I was at work. Oil for me is a back up. How do I find out the load of the motor? She runs on 110 but as a 1/2 hp, she ain't a small one

                        2. While I like the whole house auto start gen set idea, it doesn't do much for me when it's not running, at least the solar gets some small return on investment. Plus it's still loud. Solar panels can't be hidden, true, but I can fake not being around a lot easier without a gen set running. Of course if I have the wood furnace rolling, all bets ar off anyway

                        3. While I don't want to sound like I am loaded, which I am not, well I am drinking JD right now so I will be loaded soon, the cost isn't a huge concern. Think of my and the wife as yuppy preppers. With solar I can minimize my fuel usage and still keep the bare essentials running, be fairly quiet about it and he'll they kinda look cool on the house.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Talked to grape solar today, thought maybe since I can get the panels at HD and get my 10 percent military discount it would be a win. What pricks. Apparently if I don't buy a $27,000 dollar system from them and install it all at once I am an idiot......

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gmanInPA View Post
                            To clarify some things about Bimodal/Grid-interactive inverters... as ButchDeal mentioned, they CAN feed back to the grid with hybrid inverters, or you can just power the loads that are connected to your inverter (assuming it is on a branch circuit), which still ultimately lowers your POCO power consumption. Every kWh made by your PV is one less you'll need to buy from the POCO. You might get some of your investment back doing so, but you won't be 'making money' anytime soon with that approach.

                            If Hybrid inverters are installed on a branch circuit off of your main panel and the inverter is grid-sell capable (and enabled), then any surplus PV power after the batteries are at charge, and the inverter loads are met... that power is "sold" back to the main panel, and is only truly "sold" back to the POCO if there is no demand on the rest of the main panel and one has a net metering agreement with the POCO. I'm not sure why anyone would sell all their PV to the POCO with a hybrid system vs self-consuming it first where the most savings can usually be found by reducing the POCO power.

                            So PV power coming into the inverter from the CCs if usually prioritized according to the demand of the following: Battery Float --> Inverter Loads --> Main Panel --> POCO. Of course the POCO is not truly "demand", but any surplus power does end up there (or you can simply turn this off, but you'll also be self-consuming much less because you're not sending any power to the main panel. In smaller systems, the amount truly going to the POCO is likely very small under normal circumstances BTW.

                            A good idea is to alter your usage habits to time your high-demand loads form your main panel with your best solar hours. This way, most, if any surplus PV is able to be used by your main panel circuits that are not normally fed from the inverter.
                            I would think if the home could use that power it does? With the wife and I working, the house really uses little power of the fridge freezer and of course AC in the summer.

                            Thinking out loud and maybe this is jack talking, what if the house critical systems were off grid, is that even possible? Using the poco to only power the non critical items.

                            Also, we don't have nat gas where I am but supposedly it is coming. How long does nat gas run if you had a wide spread outage? Should I swap the electric to nat gas. Cheaper to tun yes, but not as easy to run in a power outage.....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                              but when your lights are on , the moths come flocking to the light
                              thats why we would move into the basement with blackout curtains...... Ok everyone roll your eyes and say together with me "this guy is nuts"........

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