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Will batteries ever be ditched if solar panels compromise the grid?

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  • Will batteries ever be ditched if solar panels compromise the grid?

    I wonder, if let's say that solar panels got much more efficient, were more widespread and were universally connected to something like a national grid, would a need for batteries be obsolete?

    I guess a way to see it as, would be to say if it was dark in the central and eastern time zones, then the previous time zones(especially southern California, New Mexico, and Arizona with it's abundant sunlight, I imagine there being a higher number of solar panels here) would be able to supplement the area with it's excess solar power? Also, isn't there any solar power produced at night, even though I understand it is very little to power houses, it still can act as some supply to the grid, to power the houses needing to be powered on?

    Also, not many houses would be needing electricity at night since a good chunk are asleep. I have very barely any knowledge in how the grid works, so do hold your laughs if whatever I say might baffle or surprise you.

  • #2
    Errr.............short answer no. Just think about it for a minute, solar works during the day MOST of the time, and there in lies the problem. The other hurdle to overcome would be the distance and jurisdictional issues, so its a bit silly really.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by DerGiLLster View Post
      I guess a way to see it as, would be to say if it was dark in the central and eastern time zones, then the previous time zones(especially southern California, New Mexico, and Arizona with it's abundant sunlight, I imagine there being a higher number of solar panels here) would be able to supplement the area with it's excess solar power? .
      Electricity doesn't transport well (easily, inexpensively, without loss,etc) over the long distances you are describing, especially AC, as hundreds of miles is considered far.

      Originally posted by DerGiLLster View Post
      Also, isn't there any solar power produced at night, even though I understand it is very little to power houses, it still can act as some supply to the grid, to power the houses needing to be powered on?
      Yes some light. But if the panels because so efficient enough to convert moonlight into any usable amount of energy, we would have so much excess in daytime we'd be swimming in electrons during sunny days.

      Night and cloudy/rainy days make solar only a portion of generation needed until long distance transport is ever solved cost effectively (not to mention near-miraculously).

      I always dreamed we'd have panels in orbit and just send down long cables to hover over land, then we come up with some wireless tether method of distribution from there to the ground.

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      • #4
        "Electricity doesn't transport well (easily, inexpensively, without loss,etc) over the long distances you are describing, especially AC, as hundreds of miles is considered far"

        @cebury,

        Did you mean to say DC instead of AC in the quoted sentance. My understanding is the AC is used because it is able to transport well without much degradation.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by compchat View Post
          My understanding is the AC is used because it is able to transport well without much degradation.
          I'm not an EE so I'm dipping my toe into the water here.

          The statement that "AC transports well" is because it is easy to step up the voltage to higher amounts (like 500kv+) with transformers, which then cause less degradation/losses from resistance. It's the higher voltage that yields the benefit and has been easier/cheaper to get existing AC into higher voltage vs. DC. But IIRC a straight comparison of efficiency and more so financially, between AC vs DC at already high voltage transmission rates: DC wins out. There are other technical benefits to DC but once you consider all the costs of getting/receiving DC before/after transmission, it becomes too expensive.

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          • #6
            Cebury is correct. AC has always been used because changing the voltage is easy and efficient. However, DC high voltage lines are becoming more popular, because the technology for changing the voltage has finally caught up. Verry high voltage DC is actually easier to transport than high voltage AC.

            In short, batteries or some type of energy storage will be necessary. Keep in mind, CA is only 3 hours behind the east coast. If it gets dark here at 5pm, then we would only have power until 8pm.
            And as already mentioned, transporting power over such extreme distances is impractical, no matter the method.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by cebury View Post
              I'm not an EE so I'm dipping my toe into the water here.

              The statement that "AC transports well" is because it is easy to step up the voltage to higher amounts (like 500kv+) with transformers, which then cause less degradation/losses from resistance. It's the higher voltage that yields the benefit and has been easier/cheaper to get existing AC into higher voltage vs. DC. But IIRC a straight comparison of efficiency and more so financially, between AC vs DC at already high voltage transmission rates: DC wins out. There are other technical benefits to DC but once you consider all the costs of getting/receiving DC before/after transmission, it becomes too expensive.
              Very good, but I will add to it. HVDC is used for Transport and Interchange between TX and the rest of the world. By Transport I mean point A to Point B like one city to the next. In practice from the power plant far away to the city. Purely economic. AC has two losses in both Impedance and resistance of the wire. DC only loss is resistance.

              The state of TX does not allow any AC power to cross the state line for security purposes. To inter exchange AC power, it must be synchronized. In other words every generator must be synced up with all other generators. If you are just a little out of sync it goes BOOM and you burn up generators. This is what causes blackouts over large areas of the country. So TX only allows interconnects via DC. Additionally inter exchange between the 7 national grids are done at AC for the same reason so one area of the country cannot knock out the whole country.

              MSEE, PE

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              • #8
                Originally posted by cebury View Post
                I always dreamed we'd have panels in orbit and just send down long cables to hover over land, then we come up with some wireless tether method of distribution from there to the ground.
                You "always" dreamed this? I had a recurring dream when I was in my teens about riding a go-kart up Joanie Calabrese's driveway and past her house - this is the kind of thing I spent my time on. Your endeavor sounds more useful and more productive, yet possibly even more unattainable.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DerGiLLster View Post
                  I wonder, if let's say that solar panels got much more efficient, were more widespread and were universally connected to something like a national grid, would a need for batteries be obsolete?
                  No. There are demand surges that are independent of level of insolation, even if you could use Phoenix solar power in Maine. Better distribution systems will help even things out of course, but there will always be a need for dispatchable generation. Batteries might play a SMALL part in that, but no long-term solution is going to rely on gigawatt-hours worth of batteries. The economics just doesn't work.
                  Also, isn't there any solar power produced at night
                  No, there is effectively none.



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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by cebury View Post
                    I always dreamed we'd have panels in orbit and just send down long cables to hover over land, then we come up with some wireless tether method of distribution from there to the ground.
                    Solar power satellites have been in the planning stages for a long time (transmitting power via microwave) but are still a long ways off.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
                      Solar power satellites have been in the planning stages for a long time (transmitting power via microwave) but are still a long ways off.
                      Already been done. Russians have been radiating the White House since the 70's trying to cook congress and POTUS. Will never work as you cannot focus the beam tight enough. More effective is a small nuclear device to go bang and emit a powerful burst of X-Rays and Gamma Rays to cook a specified area. But you only get one shot.

                      All pie in the sky stuff. We heard it all in the Navy silent service.
                      MSEE, PE

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DerGiLLster View Post
                        I wonder, if let's say that solar panels got much more efficient, were more widespread and were universally connected to something like a national grid, would a need for batteries be obsolete?

                        I guess a way to see it as, would be to say if it was dark in the central and eastern time zones, then the previous time zones(especially southern California, New Mexico, and Arizona with it's abundant sunlight, I imagine there being a higher number of solar panels here) would be able to supplement the area with it's excess solar power? Also, isn't there any solar power produced at night, even though I understand it is very little to power houses, it still can act as some supply to the grid, to power the houses needing to be powered on?

                        Also, not many houses would be needing electricity at night since a good chunk are asleep. I have very barely any knowledge in how the grid works, so do hold your laughs if whatever I say might baffle or surprise you.
                        Unfortunately a lot of power is used at night even if people go to sleep. And even if you could build enough solar panels there really isn't enough sunshine in the world to generate and the ability to transmit the gigawatts of power used 24 hours a day.

                        So you will still need some type of energy storage system or a way to generate power when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                          So you will still need some type of energy storage system or a way to generate power when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing.
                          That means double the expense, building two systems, wasting resources, become a heavy polluter. everything Green Mafia want to do away with. .Well they do want to make energy very expensive to punish the poor and working class. Just ask NoBama
                          MSEE, PE

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                            That means double the expense, building two systems, wasting resources, become a heavy polluter. everything Green Mafia want to do away with. .Well they do want to make energy very expensive to punish the poor and working class. Just ask NoBama
                            And yet it seems that energy storage continues to increase in size across the world. While not a cost effective way to store energy some places it is gaining ground.

                            Check out the attach news release on energy storage.
                            Last edited by SunEagle; 12-22-2015, 04:00 PM. Reason: spelling

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                              Unfortunately a lot of power is used at night even if people go to sleep. And even if you could build enough solar panels there really isn't enough sunshine in the world to generate and the ability to transmit the gigawatts of power used 24 hours a day.

                              So you will still need some type of energy storage system or a way to generate power when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing.
                              Awhile back Scientfic American magazine article described a future hydrogen based future. In that article scientists envisioned liquid hydrogen filled tubes containing conductors that could transmit electrical energy around the world without loss.

                              The amount of energy hitting the earth from the sun is stupendous. Could easily power the world's current electrical demand.

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