Not sure where "half the day/night" comes from, but yeah, only 70% if I believe the 30% shading.
I have a good chainsaw. But I have a LOT of trees.
bewildered by panel choices for DIY system
Collapse
X
-
I've made a spreadsheet to compare a variety of specific panels, configuration (number of panels and landscape/portrait), etc. I assume a $50 optimizer on every panel (Tigo TS4-R-O) and $3500 in add'l costs that are fixed regardless of these other choices (inverter, racking, structure, basically from the OP of this thread). Doing that, a 15 panel system with the Canadian 320watt panels is not much more per watt ($1.54) than the Talesun would be ($1.46), and gives me a good bit more wattage (4800 versus 4050). IOW, those bargain panels don't help me that much because of all the other costs.
Screen Shot 2019-11-07 at 4.04.22 PM.png
The "panels $" column is a little hinky, because the various panels come from different vendors, all of whom compute shipping separately (flat fee, or some value the shopping cart just computes based on weight or something).
Leave a comment:
-
That's a very good question, to which I don't know the answer. All I know is that it's an input to PVWatts, and it's the number an installer used in PVWatts to estimate the number of kwh I should generate per year (a number which they are guaranteeing). The installer came up with the number by getting up on my roof with some sort of electronic device.
I am planning ground-mount. One reason being that the location would be a bit sunnier, though not dramatically so, than the roof.
Leave a comment:
-
Leave a comment:
-
If cost is a concern Renvu is selling Talesun panels for $0.36/w.
Leave a comment:
-
In the "non premium", I like the REC NPEAK, their price-performance- warranty combination seems one of the best. I am curious of how they are going to price their new REC Alpha.
Next I like the price performance warranty of the Qcell QPEAK DUO G5.
Both are Cut Cell panels, so in theory have a slight edge in Shade mitigation.
Leave a comment:
-
What part(s) of the day would the entire array have direct sun, with no shading?Last edited by sdold; 11-05-2019, 01:24 PM.Leave a comment:
-
Leave a comment:
-
That's why I said it's an input to PVWatts.
Agreed. But the inputs would have to get really complicated to capture what most people (including me) are gonna see - e.g. it's completely shady some of the day, completely sunny other times. Better than nothing though, I guess.
The more someone knows about the subject the easier it is to understand why.
I believe the way PVWatts calcs. a shade penalty on annual output is probably OK and mostly harmless for small penalties of a few % or so. But much more than that and it's not only pretty useless, but misleading.
One example of many: Suppose you are in the northern hemisphere and your array is shaded by vegetation to the SE such that the insolation on the array is decreased by a total of 30 % until solar noon on Dec. 21. Also assume the array is located at 45 deg. n. latitude with a 45 deg. tilt and an array azimuth of 225 deg. You, wanting to be a bit conservative but also knowing the array is not in shade all the time, plug in 15 % shading (worst shade reduction/2) assuming you want to be somewhat "conservative" but not too conservative. What will happen is that the model will reduce all hourly outputs for every day of the year by 15 %. The reality is that annual production will be reduced by a lot less, probably something like a few % or less. You go merrily on your way and increase the array size by 15 %. Now, oversizing is bad enough. Doing so on bad information only makes a bad situation worse. Oversize if you want, do so knowing what your doing. This would be a case of the model misleading the ignorant.
Point is, shading is a complicated subject and, in spite of what you, I and probably a lot of others might want, there is no easy way to get what's even a ball park estimate.
And, wishing or having an otherwise useful model to provide what looks to be an informed way to get a shade penalty is less than helpful and is misleading - your situation being a good example. If you choose to become more informed on the subject you'll understand where I'm coming from.
Further point is, and for several reasons, simplistic bandaid adjustments to annual output to account for shading such as that used by the PVWatts model can be worse than nothing - not better than nothing.
IMO, it would be better for the model to state that shading is complicated and beyond the scope and intent of the PVWatts model and leave it there.
That way, the probability that folks will be led astray might just be a bit lower.
Or, as appears to have been done with how the PVWatts model handles shading, tell the great unwashed masses what they want to hear.
Better, IMO only, would be to at least inform users of the limits of how the model handles shading as a heads' up. Still not a good option, but as you say, better than nothing.
Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.Last edited by J.P.M.; 11-05-2019, 11:21 AM.Leave a comment:
-
input reduces each month's output and also each of the hourly outputs by very close to the same amount %age wise. That's obviously not a realistic way to do shading.
Leave a comment:
-
That's a very good question, to which I don't know the answer. All I know is that it's an input to PVWatts, and it's the number an installer used in PVWatts to estimate the number of kwh I should generate per year (a number which they are guaranteeing). The installer came up with the number by getting up on my roof with some sort of electronic device.
I am planning ground-mount. One reason being that the location would be a bit sunnier, though not dramatically so, than the roof.
As such, and in any case, that input reduces each month's output and also each of the hourly outputs by very close to the same amount %age wise. That's obviously not a realistic way to do shading.
You might see a 30 % reduction in output over the course of a TMY, but that %age will vary as f(time).
PVWatts is a decent model for preliminary design, but handling shading in a realistic way is not one of its strong points, or any point for that matter.Leave a comment:
-
So does anyone have answers for the questions in my OP ?Leave a comment:
-
I have to assume you are referring to a roof mounted array. With 5 acres have you considered a ground mount. You can achieve optimum performance with a ground mount.
Leave a comment:
-
Curious as to how the 30% is calculated, and what does it represent? Shading changes daily and will get worse as days get shorter.
I have to assume you are referring to a roof mounted array. With 5 acres have you considered a ground mount. You can achieve optimum performance with a ground mount.Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by other respondentsI don't know about the brand specifics, but be aware that panels put out almost no power when shaded.
Last edited by RShackleford; 11-03-2019, 08:15 PM.Leave a comment:
Leave a comment: