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  • #16
    Originally posted by Renewable Future View Post
    Hi Folks,
    I want to build a 30 or 50 amp system with panels and a wind turbine feeding a battery bank which feeds an inverter that feeds a separate circuit panel. I will disconnect certain circuits from the grid panel, such as lighting, and run them into the alternative panel. Ayt recommendations for equipment to do this? The batteries of course can be configured to supple voltage to the inverter in multiples of 12.

    Thanks for your help.
    I dont know how serious you are ... but I'd love to show you my threads where I did exactly what you are wanting. My only regret is that I did not go 48v. I could have used 8 220ah batteries, instead of 4 435ah batteries. With 48v I COULD HAVE paid less, got a little more run time, had smaller wires, and more room for expansion.

    None of what I did will save you money. At best, if you manage your batteries really really well ... you will save enough in grid connection to replace the batteries in 5 years. Right now i save about $30 a month, but that includes having diverted half my water heater to solar power.



    I have a discussion on how I did the excess power dump to the water heater using a Solid State Relay at Midnite solars forum




    FWIW ... the system I describe above will cost you 7k. About the price of a decent whole house generator, less installation. (give or take). Your "fuel" is the battery bank. So no, not cheap and does not pay you a ROI, unless you consider your investment is energy independence.

    Admin Note, hi Marix, while I like your input I dont like the links or the promotion of another forum, so please lay off the links
    Last edited by Matrix; 03-13-2018, 10:31 PM.
    285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

    Comment


    • #17
      For the disconnecting of certain circuits, I found the Reliant Controls Pro Tran 2 to be the easiest set up and the exact ticket. Yes it is a Generator Transfer switch, BUT ... you will be using your battery bank / AC Inverter like a generator. The Pro Tran 2 lets you isolate certain circuits in your main panel, and then pick and chose which of those circuits run battery and which run grid at the flip of a switch. If is a great 10 circuit box and UL approved.

      http://reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?510A
      285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

      Comment


      • #18
        Thanks for the reply Matrix. The link doesn't work. Not sure if I want to use a transfer switch but had the same thoughts about the battery bank being the power source. What inverter did you use? Do reasonably priced panels produce 48V? The batteries I have in mind would cost about $200 total.

        Some background. I live in Maine where we have an anti-renewables, pro corporation (especially if the corp is from another state) Governor, a Puppet Utilities Commission that has voted to end net metering, and the dominant utility (president makes $1.3 million) is owned by a monopolistic foreign company which just raised the standard offer for electricity by 20%.

        There are many people here, including myself, sick and tired of all the decisions being made by a powerful few and would pay extra to be independent. There is also a very large environmental community that want to reduce carbon emissions. If I can make a system that works perhaps others would want to use it too. Start out with limited capacity and see what it will do and how to change habits to make it work best. Then can add more circuits, batteries, panels as you can afford to. No need to lay out $10-25,0000. This could be an affordable way to get many more people moving away from the grid.

        So, back to the subject. What would be the optimal mix of equipment for this set up?
        Last edited by Renewable Future; 03-13-2018, 09:40 PM.

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        • #19
          Ok so there are multiple ways to skin this cat.
          i would recommend a bimodal inverter configured with zero grid ( zero feed in). You would need a permit for the electric work regardless but I believe you do not need a net metering contract though that would be more efficient and I think you get a contract with it.

          in any case with the bimodal inverter and zero feed in you could do it with it without batteries but I assume from your independence stuff that you want the backup capabilities with batteries.
          The good thin is that with a bimodal inverter and batteries you can work partially off grid and the bimodal inverter gives yu all you need for switching

          when you are tied to the grid and zero feed in then it can save in all of your home needs as well as just the part backed up with less battery cycling.
          i am partial to outback radian inverters for this but I have a flexpower one. Schneider inverters claim to be able to do it as well but have less configuration options for zero feed in.
          This does not work by switching it uses a meter to measure how much power yu re consuming and the inverter generates exactly that amount.
          When grid goes down. A built in disconnect separates the inverter and grid allowing it to keep the emergency panel running.
          Best. Of all worlds.

          off grid systems are not particularly green as well.
          Last edited by ButchDeal; 03-13-2018, 09:54 PM.
          OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Renewable Future View Post
            Thanks for the reply Matrix. The link doesn't work. Not sure if I want to use a transfer switch but had the same thoughts about the battery bank being the power source. What inverter did you use?
            Here is the link to my system her at solarpaneltalk
            https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...here-i-want-it

            It is the exact same info as from the other forum ... it is just easier to find on the other forum. Would be nice if the Admins would at least allow us users to post a signature large enough to put this kind of info in, then I would not have to go and hunt it every time some one asks.

            The transfer switch I am referring to if you could see the link is a Reliant Controls Pro Tran 2 10 circuit breaker box with 10 15 amp breakers installed. It is supper easy to install and allows you to toggle between grid and solar for each circuit. If you cannot see the link, google it. It is not your traditional generator transfer switch. It is more of a solar sub panel.

            My inverter is a Conext SW 4024 240v split. It is OK. I am sure there are better out there. I have not been impressed with it's calmed features. Even their tech support tells me it will not do as it is advertised to do in some areas. But as an inverter for off grid with a charger it does the job. The charger leaves some to be desired. My Solar CC is much more user friendly and just works better.

            Sorry I cannot link to you the info and work I did and discussion I've had with great support on how to set up a solid state relay for diversion loads so you can use all the power your roof can produce. I have been doing it since Nov 17 and it has cut my water heating bill nearly in half just with excess power.
            Last edited by Matrix; 03-13-2018, 10:10 PM.
            285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
              Ok so there are multiple ways to skin this cat.
              i would recommend a bimodal inverter configured with zero grid ( zero feed in). You would need a permit for the electric work regardless but I believe you do not need a net metering contract though that would be more efficient and I think you get a contract with it.

              in any case with the bimodal inverter and zero feed in you could do it with it without batteries but I assume from your independence stuff that you want the backup capabilities with batteries.
              The good thin is that with a bimodal inverter and batteries you can work partially off grid and the bimodal inverter gives yu all you need for switching

              when you are tied to the grid and zero feed in then it can save in all of your home needs as well as just the part backed up with less battery cycling.
              i am partial to outback radian inverters for this but I have a flexpower one. Schneider inverters claim to be able to do it as well but have less configuration options for zero feed in.
              This does not work by switching it uses a meter to measure how much power yu re consuming and the inverter generates exactly that amount.
              When grid goes down. A built in disconnect separates the inverter and grid allowing it to keep the emergency panel running.
              Best. Of all worlds.

              off grid systems are not particularly green as well.
              Hi ButchDeal, does the bimodal with zero grid actually work. If I understand what you mean by bimodal, isn't zero grid a particular products branding for how they allow the inverter to interact with the grid, not sending any power back to the grid, but rather, run off battery until a user voltage or threshold has been reached at which point it switches to grid? Or starts helping the batteries supplementing with grid power? And in some cases starts to charge the batteries? Does Zero Grid mean, you will use NO power from the grid until or unless you reach a set of parameters?

              If so ... this is what the SW is supposed to do in what they call AC Support mode an Load Shaving ... but it does not work well as tested by me and Schneider Tech support tier level 3. They confirmed it does work sorta, but it is more of a Grid Support Battery rather than Battery support grid. And there is never a time when you are using only battery no mater how you set it up. It requires an almost perfectly balanced load between L1 and L2 and even then, does not kick in on battery until you are over 500 watts or more. I have run 1300 watts on L1 with almost no load on L2 and the system draws 98% from grid and 2% from battery. At best I have gotten the system to do about 60% gird 40% battery. But that required having very balanced loads and loads exceeding 2000 watts.

              I would like to know if someone else does this better. Schneider has not impressed me.
              285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

              Comment


              • #22
                It does not matter where you live in the USA. Just in battery cost alone, not counting anything else, off grid power is going to be 5 to 10 times more expensive and extremely limited. So you had better be aware of what you are asking for.

                It is like this. Two gas stations side by side. One sells gas for $2/gal, and the other $10/gal. Guess which gas station you are chose to use. Lets make it real easy for you. Stay on the grid, and just send me the money you plan to spend on batteries and solar. . Both of us will be tickled pink and happy happy. We both end up with more money in our pockets.
                MSEE, PE

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                • #23
                  Schneider XW do not have many options for it.
                  Outback has several. Most efficient is to use a set of CTs to monitor total grid usage and produce that amount. Yu can configure it to impudent batteries or not to do this. Many grid tie inverters can do it without batteries and a few with. Best ones I know if are outback and SolarEdge (StorEdge option for batteries there).
                  You should have an auto transformer between your legs to help balance them in your configuration, Outback and SolarEdge would as well, and some of them default to having one.
                  grid zero, zero grid, grid assist are company terms but there are multiple ways and abilities to handle it.

                  I would set it up for prefer solar and save batteries mostly full for backup personally
                  OP should look into getting a net metering contract in his state though as it is likely best option as long as they have them. If he can
                  OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Thanks. I will look into the Auto Transformer Idea. That may help. I thought you were talking about Outback. That may be my next inverter ... or wondering want the MidNite folks will release in the next year or so.
                    285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
                      You should have an auto transformer between your legs to help balance them in your configuration,
                      ButchDeal

                      I have been giving the idea of an Auto Transformer a lot of thought. Could I just use something like an Outback FW-X240 out of the box, or would I have to get one specifically designed or speced by Schneider for my particular situation and the SW 4024? I know the FW-X240 is designed for 2 Outback 120v inverters, but is used to balance the loads when these inverters are stacked for 240v. Would the FW-X240 work, or if not, what might? would it even be possible? Could I source if from a local electrical supply?

                      Autotrans.JPG
                      285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Matrix View Post

                        ButchDeal

                        I have been giving the idea of an Auto Transformer a lot of thought. Could I just use something like an Outback FW-X240 out of the box, or would I have to get one specifically designed or speced by Schneider for my particular situation and the SW 4024? I know the FW-X240 is designed for 2 Outback 120v inverters, but is used to balance the loads when these inverters are stacked for 240v. Would the FW-X240 work, or if not, what might? would it even be possible? Could I source if from a local electrical supply?

                        Autotrans.JPG
                        yes the FW-X240 is designed to balance between two 120V inverters as well as other things. I use one for my well as I only have one 120V inverter so the well gets 240V from the FW-X240.
                        Schneider makes one I am sure but I don't know the part number. The outback one would work well.

                        In the outback land, with the FW-X240, if the loads are small, the system would shut down one inverter and let the primary one handle the load, for efficiency.
                        OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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                        • #27
                          I called Schneider. They actually do not make one and did not have a recommendation. When they asked why, I told them to balance the L1/L2 load from the SW so their AC support mode would actually work, and Tech Support seemed surprised - Like why didn't we think of that - and thought it was an excellent idea.

                          So it looks looks like the only real option out there is an FW-x240. ButchDeal Can they simply be placed inside an enclosure of the appropriate size? Do they need a fan?
                          285Wx9 / MNClassic 150 / CSW4024 / TrojanL16H-ACx4

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Matrix View Post
                            I called Schneider. They actually do not make one and did not have a recommendation. When they asked why, I told them to balance the L1/L2 load from the SW so their AC support mode would actually work, and Tech Support seemed surprised - Like why didn't we think of that - and thought it was an excellent idea.

                            So it looks looks like the only real option out there is an FW-x240. ButchDeal Can they simply be placed inside an enclosure of the appropriate size? Do they need a fan?
                            Outback makes one with an inclusure that includes a fan and breakers. That fwx version is intended to go inside the integrated flexpower inclosures.
                            OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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