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  • Partial off grid system

    Hi Folks,
    I want to build a 30 or 50 amp system with panels and a wind turbine feeding a battery bank which feeds an inverter that feeds a separate circuit panel. I will disconnect certain circuits from the grid panel, such as lighting, and run them into the alternative panel. Ayt recommendations for equipment to do this? The batteries of course can be configured to supple voltage to the inverter in multiples of 12.

    Thanks for your help.

  • #2
    power from an off grid system will cost considerably more than power from the grid or a grid tie system.
    What is your goal with this project? to save money? be reliable?

    There are other solutions than off grid.
    Do you have net metering where you are located? what state and power company do you have?
    OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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    • #3
      I think partial off grid is great if you can make use of as much of the energy during solar-production periods as possible, allowing more limited battery size that is used more to enable your 'microgrid' than to actually store significant amounts of energy for future use (possibly incorporating grid-interactive PV into the mix). Artificial lighting is not usually that use case since it is mostly needed at night, though it can also be very efficient an not require much energy support.

      Consider things like:
      1. Provide a supplemental space cooling system/component that will run when the sun is out.
      2. Enable a chest freezer to run mostly during daylight. Monitor interior temperature and be able to switch to grid support.
      3. Produce hot water that can be used later (use a well insulated storage tank).

      I agree you will probably not save dollars in the short term or possibly long term doing these things. This is not an established use-case so you will be tinkering. However, you will be taking steps toward self-sufficiency which many here won't place a dollar value on. You may also get around some significant utility restrictions in this way. It may be more reasonable in commercial installations where refrigerant or water loops can be "supplemented" with a grid-independent system ('thermal-interactive' instead of grid-interactive).

      Best of luck to you Renewable Future.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by adoublee View Post
        I agree you will probably not save dollars in the short term or possibly long term doing these things.
        Originally posted by adoublee View Post
        However, you will be taking steps toward self-sufficiency
        How does one possibly square these two statements? you can not be getting closer to self sufficiency by spending more money.

        Just like you can not make up losses in volume.
        OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post

          you can not be getting closer to self sufficiency by spending more money.
          That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Money is for spending, it's not good for much else.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by adoublee View Post

            That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Money is for spending, it's not good for much else.
            I think you failed at basic economics. You have to balance the complete sheet.
            To be self sufficient you need to completely balance the sheet or better, spending more takes more effort and thus hurts your efforts for self sufficiency.
            OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post

              I think you failed at basic economics. You have to balance the complete sheet.
              To be self sufficient you need to completely balance the sheet or better, spending more takes more effort and thus hurts your efforts for self sufficiency.
              Incorrect again.

              Have you ever paid for a steak when ground chuck in the form a hamburger was available? If so, do you feel you failed basic economics? If not, I feel sorry that you have never experienced the added value of a steak.

              The OP did not suggest whey they want to do this, but I'm sure you know they value dollars in the pocket today over all else. I'm done responding to know-it-all comments. The OP can take what they want, leave the rest...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by adoublee View Post
                Have you ever paid for a steak when ground chuck in the form a hamburger was available?
                You are being very obtuse here.

                Ground chuck is not equivalent to steak. further all steaks are not equivalent.
                To be self sufficient, if your income only supports ground chuck (or worse general hamburger), and you continue to beak ribeye, you will find that soon you can afford neither.

                electrons are all equivalent. If you read my post (right above your first one) you will see that I asked OP what the goal was (save money or be reliable).
                Both of which can be done cheaper than an off grid system BTW.

                You, however made assumptions about OP and claim of closer to self sufficiency.


                so to expand on this steak economics lesson:

                you could try to become more self sufficient by getting a cow.

                you would need some land. land quantitie to rase a cow varies by region with best being a little over an acre of prime land.

                so an acre of prime land with water source is likely going to be $3,000
                calves can be cheap particularly if you get a steer from a dairy farm so maybe $200
                now you are going to need to get some hay for winter, assuming you grow it yourself you can get a used tractor or do it by hand with sickle
                Tractor and equipment (heavily used) $5000 or sickle $100
                Tractor will take about 20 hours disk, plant, cut, bale, and stack one acre of hay.
                sickle, well if you know what you are doing and are in good shape three weeks

                So is farmers time worth the difference there? toss in risk of weather that might happen when cutting and stacking for such a long time, making the hay worthless too.

                In the end after two years you get roughly 1000 lbs of various cuts of beef that can be stored in freezer for a year.
                oh but now you have to run a freezer for a year....
                costs $5 a month to power it from the grid
                or $20 a month to power it off grid

                You can sell beef to pay for the power, your choice is to keep it on grid and sell the hampburger so you can eat steaks and roasts all year or....
                sell the steaks, roasts, and ground chuck to pay for off grid power and eat ground beef (mostly intestines).
                Last edited by ButchDeal; 03-13-2018, 12:08 PM.
                OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
                  electrons are all equivalent.
                  The OP asked for recommendations on how to go 'partial off grid'. Discussion of self-sufficiency is only to show they MAY have reason to not believe what you believe about having to save dollars for any venture to be worth it. Why don't you just ask him or her if the goal is to save dollars, or discuss what they asked?

                  And while electrons are equal power sources are not equal. If a chest freezer can run SOME when the grid is not present, there is added value. If sufficient heat can provided to keep pipes from freezing, there IS added value.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by adoublee View Post
                    The OP asked for recommendations on how to go 'partial off grid'.
                    I asked questions to give an informed answers about OP situation. OP like others (case in point see your posts), MAY not be aware of other options like bimodal or grid tie solar.

                    Originally posted by adoublee View Post
                    Why don't you just ask him or her if the goal is to save dollars, or discuss what they asked?
                    SEE and READ post #2 more closely.

                    Originally posted by adoublee View Post
                    If a chest freezer can run SOME when the grid is not present, there is added value.
                    sure but remember chest freezers can stay cold a long time. That thermal storage is far cheaper than chemical battery storage....
                    Last edited by ButchDeal; 03-13-2018, 12:32 PM.
                    OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
                      How does one possibly square these two statements? you can not be getting closer to self sufficiency by spending more money.
                      Self sufficiency does not equal having a lot of money.

                      A farmer who grows all his own food, and trades excess food for other things he needs, is very self sufficient, but might have very little money.

                      A billionaire living in a big Manhattan condo might have a lot of money and not be self sufficient at all.



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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
                        Self sufficiency does not equal having a lot of money.
                        No one said anything about having a lot of money. I said SPENDING more money.
                        A farmer that grows all his own food.... and spends $20 a month for electricity is a lot closer to the farmer that spends $50 a month on power.

                        Wherever the farmer gets the money it took him TIME to do or make whatever he traded for the money to pay for the electricity. Spending LESS on the power helps him get to self sufficiency.


                        On a farm were things are tight (almost all farms), efficiency is paramount. you want to efficiently plant the field so that you do not spend too much on fuel, and do not take too much of the farmers time so that he can do other things... It all goes into the farms efficiency.


                        Not Spending money is not the same as having money.

                        For example there is this guy with just $5 to his name (Bob). He walks by a car dealership and does NOT buy a $50k new pickup truck.
                        He still only has the $5.


                        Last edited by ButchDeal; 03-13-2018, 01:17 PM.
                        OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
                          I asked questions to give an informed answers about OP situation. OP like others (case in point see your posts), MAY not be aware of other options like bimodal or grid tie solar.
                          I'm fully aware and aware that when grid-interactivity is involved, the utility makes the rules. Utilities don't make the rules for (partial) off-grid or as I say grid-independent. For example, a local utility tacking on $5.50/kw/month for the privilege of a grid-interactive system that never exports to the grid. They call it a standby charge since they have to be there to cover the demand if the system is down, yet they do not recognize PV as demand-reducing technology when setting rebate or capacity payment policy. We need more partially off-grid options and systems installed.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by adoublee View Post

                            I'm fully aware and aware that when grid-interactivity is involved, the utility makes the rules. Utilities don't make the rules for (partial) off-grid or as I say grid-independent. For example, a local utility tacking on $5.50/kw/month for the privilege of a grid-interactive system that never exports to the grid. They call it a standby charge since they have to be there to cover the demand if the system is down, yet they do not recognize PV as demand-reducing technology when setting rebate or capacity payment policy. We need more partially off-grid options and systems installed.
                            all great and wonderful and only relates to the questions I posed in post #2 to find out from OP. Most utilities do not charge extra for these fees, and there are still other options like bimodal and grid zero (no feed in) that can be more efficient and economical.

                            Off grid (not partial at all as OP specified as the solar is ALWAYS off grid, the load is switched), is very inefficient, costly, and maintenance prone.
                            OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by adoublee View Post

                              That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Money is for spending, it's not good for much else.
                              Money may be thought of as a medium of exchange to exchange productivity for perceived needs and thus handy to supply goods and systems that will allow grid and utility free living. That may or may not fit a description of self sufficiency which, in a so called advanced society, I'd think would require more than just keeping the lights on and HVAC needs met.

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