Finally starting my 2KW GT system

[trbizwiz]

OK so I got all my paper work turned in to empire electric On Wednesday. they have called everyday with questions, so at least they are looking at the application. But sadly it almost seems like they don't want to approve my grid inter tie.
Anyway the latest round of questions was how is the transfer switch wired up. Luckily I was able to email pictures to my original electrician that wired the house 3 years ago and the electric engineer guys at Empire. I think they will get it worked out today.
If the application is approved, I'll be buying 10 Yingli 230 watt panels, 10 Enphase M190's, and the Enphase EMU for monitoring. The total system cost shipped to me with taxes and all is $6995.
I am very excited about finally starting. I have wanted solar for years, probably since I was a little boy. So I am kind of a geek.
Anyway, I intend to mount these off the south end of my barn as kind of a lean to set up. But eventually I would like to mount the panels on pole top mounts in the yard, with the ability to pivot so as to track the sun through out the day. I read about a DIY system where a guy used refrigerant and a double acting hydrolic cylinder to actuate the panels. The energy source was the solar effect on the containers the refrigerant is stored in, using shades to balance the heat until the panel directly faces the sun. I understand the principle behind this set up but I haven't seen a detailed build up of it. The original one was in Mother Earth News in the 70's. If anyone has more info about this set up I would appreciate any hints or advice. Also if there are any specs on building pole top mounts as a DIY project I would appreciate info on that too. I have done some digging, but no one seems to do it this way. Maybe that is a sign it is a stupid idea. I have no idea, but it seems it would add some much needed efficiency to my system with out adding costly solar equipment.
I intend to keep this thread running and posting updates. I'll photo document as well. I kind of look at this as a journal for my project. And a way to get my problems and questions solved. Thanks for your readership, and thanks in advance for your help.

[Mike90250]

Nothing wrong with poletop mounts. It's good you are looking at your options before you buy everything. But if you have good exposure, why use enphase inverters? In good conditions, you don't get anything extra, and have a lot to wire up. And you have to subscribe to their monthly/annual monitoring, just 'cause it's your gear, doesnt mean they don't want to extract more $ from you yearly, seince they went through all the bother to encrypt the data !!

[trbizwiz]

Yes I have great southern exposure, and I have no potential sun blockages that are over 1 story for a thousand yards. Sadly most of the inverters that are a single box inverter require more than 10 panels to to turn on. They also don't offer the ease of installation, or the ease of monitoring. When I grow my system, I will likely go to a central inverter. The price I am paying for my Enphase inverters I can likely recover most of it if I sell them off by the piece later on eBay. So it will give me a low start up cost, an easier (so to speak) approval for grid tie (they already have an enphase system in my area on their grid so the inverters wont receive any scrutiny). I definitely believe a central inverter is a no brainer for a 3KW system or larger. They are just tricky to justify for a 2 KW system, especially for a DIYer and a solar NUbe. I figured if the monitoring fees get annoying, I just pay for every other one and get an averaging type of analysis.

[trbizwiz]

If anyone has any schematics on pole top mounts more specifically what DIYer's are using for the pivot. I would really appreciate it.
I have considered using some used pipe for the stand. I bought it from a metal place in Springfield (Wheeler Metals) to build clothes lines (my first solar project, saved $15 per month on utilities on the average when I did that, at a cost of $65).Any way I was thinking for planting the pipe just like you would a clothes line, then welding a trailer spindle and hub on the end. That would give me a pivot on bearings and a 5 bolt plate to bolt the array bracket to. My concern is even though those hubs can handle half of 3500 pounds on a trailer, that is carrying the load vertically not horizontally. I don't know how the bearings would hold out. Though the weight from 5 panels and the racking would likely be 1/10th the rating.
Does anyone have experience or a better suggestion. I would like something smooth, because I am not sure how much power the refrigerant system will generate. I am guessing facing true south the array will need to rotate 180 degrees to be completely effective.
I also considered building a model out of wood, as I am a better carpenter than a welder, but I just haven't made a decision.

[trbizwiz]

Well, I just got notification today that my grid tie application to Empire Electric has been denied. They are saying that my transfer switch (currently installed on my home) is not sufficient as a grid lock off. The transfer switch is lockable, but they are saying if they lock it out they may not be able to come back and unlock it for a few days to a week, even if the power comes back on.
I am sending them a new electrical path schematic that includes a 30 amp lockable cut off made by eaton. I also better diagrammed how the various 100 breaker boxes operate so they know where the solar is coming from and going too. Hopefully this will appease them. At first I was quite irritated in having to do this, because it is quite evident how the system works and flows based on the charts and photos as well as the print outs of specs from each manufacturer. However I have learned allot about wiring and such in my research. I may go ahead and wire everything up my self. I had planned to pay an electrician, but he has failed to communicate with the power company and I have had to learn and explain on my own. I have done rough in wiring in the past, but I have never worked with solar, and I have never installed a breaker panel. It doesn't look all that hard though now that I really research it. So I may install it all and call the electrician out to inspect it before I have empire out to inspect it. I can probably save a bundle, and he is clearly too busy right now anyway.

So my present plan is to wire from the inverters to a combiner box, to the 30 am cut off switch on the wall of my barn visible from the utility pole and the meter on my house. Then to a 20 amp breaker in the 100 amp panel (originally I was going to tap into the lugs bringing power into the panel but they did not like that), then the power goes through the 100 amp panel under ground in buried conduit to another 100 amp box that powers the AC, pool pump, cover, and lights. Then from the 100amp panel it travels up to the transfer switch where it is spliced into the large wires that supply power to the 200 am breaker box in the mechanical room. Best I can tell it goes through 2 lockable cut off switches as well as 3 panels with 20 amp breakers which are also lockable. They can lock out my solar at least 5 times if they wish. So hopefully this will suffice.

Still no one has any thoughts on how to build a pole top pivoting panel array. I thought for sure someone has done this.

[silverhorsefarm]

I don't know how much added efficiency sun tracking buys you, but for me it would have to be a lot to justify the added expense, complexity, moving parts, and system failure. I mounted 11.34 kw on the roof of my south-facing barn (with Enphase) and it has been performing great.

[trbizwiz]

Well if I successfully design and build a pole top mount, I have a design I can Steal using basically copper tubing, a 2 way hydro cylinder and freon. The cost per pole top mount would be under $150 for tubing and cylinder and various pieces. This would be an active tracking system. There would be shades mounted on copper tubes on the sides of each array. When tilted slightly away from the sun, only one copper tube would have solar exposure. The sun would heat the freon in that tube, causing ti to "boil" this boiling would cause an increase in pressure forcing the 2 way cylinder to move. This movement would allow the other cylinder to receive sun light. That will then cause the freon in that cylinder to boil raising the pressure and pushing on the other side of the 2 way cylinder. eventually when each tube gets equal sunlight they will have equal pressure and the array will face directly at the sun. Theoretically. obviously the tubing and everything will need to be exactly the same size on either side of the cylinder, and they will need equal amounts of freon.

[trbizwiz]

Well an Empire Electric guy came out to look at my setup. So maybe I am getting closer to getting grid tie approval. Quick question, have any of you that installed you own systems had much trouble getting grid tie approval. Is this normal. I am glad we are erroring on the side of caution. I am just a little surprised it has been this much of a challenge.

On the up side I want to get this right the first time, it's always cheaper that way. The guy that came out yesterday did say we would have a double meter setup in our existing meter box. he said ti would fit in what we have. That is good news. We have a brick house and the meter box is inset in the brick. Changing that out would be a mess. He also said they hope in the future to have a true net metering system, but as of right now their billing system cant handle it. My bills will all have to be done by hand. So I guess I will need to keep close track my self. Another plus for the enphase, as it tracks and records the output for review at anytime.

[solar_dave]

Man even a contractor had problems getting mine approved. 3 trips from the code guys and a trip for both the utility rep and electrician together for the final.

[trbizwiz]

Yes, I can understand their concern. Especially in my area. There are very few systems in southwest MO, so they just aren't very experienced. That usually equals very cautious. They originally declined my system design because they don't consider my transfer switch a true cut off switch. I see their point, in that if they lock it out and don't come back for a few days even if grid power is restored, I would have to run a generator longer that needed. A secondary cut off switch is a no brainer. Now however, they are not sure if having 2 cut off switches is acceptable.
These trials are good, because they are forcing me to do extra research and learn how my system will work. The less mystery the safer.
Quick question Dave. Does your system integrate into your existing electric panel through a 20 or 30 amp breaker? Or did it tie into the lugs on the main of the panel? Or are you even aware of how it ties in? Thanks for following.

[solar_dave]

Mine ties in to the panel with a 60 amp back feed breaker my 2 inverters can output 23amps of 240 V each, the issues I had was that with my load profile in my panel adding a 60 AMP breaker could possibly overload the buss bar in the panel. I think they allow 120% of rated buss bar.. I actually had to upgrade my service entrance to 400 amp to get the city to buy off on it

[trbizwiz]

Well guys, I think they are about to break my resolve. Empire is still denying my grid tie status. Some BS about not understanding the drawing. I sent them photos of the entire setup and schematics of the wiring. I honestly think they are afraid I will try to get them to pay the $2 per watt rebate that they are required by law to pay. I am guessing they have a habit of denying most systems several times just to get people to give up. I don't have the time or interest level in suing them for the rebate dollars like some have taken to. I really don't even care about that. But I am starting to lose interest in the project altogether. It appears I cant come up with a diagram that their retarded engineers can understand. I cant afford this system if I have to pay someone $10K to install it. I will think on this for a day or two, but i am thinking I may be done. It will be a better world if there are one fewer renewable energy generators on line, I guess.

[Mike90250]

How about posting the drawing here ? maybe some of us could give free advice. At least we'd know what they don't like.

I don't think you can get the rebates till the entire system is approved.

Well guys, I think they are about to break my resolve. Empire is still denying my grid tie status. Some BS about not understanding the drawing. I sent them photos of the entire setup and schematics of the wiring. I honestly think they are afraid I will try to get them to pay the $2 per watt rebate that they are required by law to pay. I am guessing they have a habit of denying most systems several times just to get people to give up. I don't have the time or interest level in suing them for the rebate dollars like some have taken to. I really don't even care about that. But I am starting to lose interest in the project altogether. It appears I cant come up with a diagram that their retarded engineers can understand. I cant afford this system if I have to pay someone $10K to install it. I will think on this for a day or two, but i am thinking I may be done. It will be a better world if there are one fewer renewable energy generators on line, I guess.

[trbizwiz]

Yes, I don't even care about any rebates. But I am not buying any equipment until they approve my grid tie. I'll Lose my grant if I don't buy the equipment soon.
I did just get off the phone with empire they are going to fax me a drawing symbolic of what they want. So we will see.

[trbizwiz]

I redid the electrical drawing today

Here is the newest drawing, I hope they like this one.