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Is a special Net Meter required for installs that will probably not over produce?

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  • Is a special Net Meter required for installs that will probably not over produce?

    I just finished installing a 4.2kwh grid-tie system. The system has been inspected by the AHJ and is currently on-line.
    The utility is willing to install a net meter but they want to add some monthly surcharges for the ability to have a net meter.
    I have completed the application for the net meter. They are just waiting on a call from me to swap it.

    In my situation I do not see this system being able to produce enough power to cause the utility to buy back power from me.
    At best I am hoping to see a noticeable reduction in my consumption. Paying a monthly surcharge for a meter that will never see billable watts to the electric utility seems like a waste.
    Any excess power I generate during the day is cancelled out by my night time consumption.

    The meter I have now is a typical 5 dial mechanical meter by Schlumberger. They would probably replace the meter with a digital equivalent.

    My question is this. If I just left the current watt meter in place would it be able to accurately show PV generated power? I have observed the meter spinning backwards in the day-time and at night spinning forwards. My concern is that it is tracking watts accurately in one direction but not the other. Would I be better off calling the utility and have them swap it out?

    Another thing that has been puzzling me is I never see a person read my meter. Maybe it is a smart meter but from the simple mechanical dials that I can view from outside the enclosure, I cannot figure out how it would transmit dial positions. I have to think something is counting the revolutions of the disk. If that is the case, will it know if the disk is spinning backwards and then count backwards?

  • #2
    If it's not tracking accurately, then you are opening yourself up to a whole mess of billing problems.
    Just have them come replace it, you may end up saving money in the long run.

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    • #3
      I would think the PoCo would require a net meter for your operating contract. The mechanical meters are good, I would have preferred
      one (that I can easily read myself). But most have a reversing gear that causes the billing total to move upward no matter which way
      the power is flowing. So you could get BILLED for the power you generated. If your generation always coincided with consumption
      that might be avoided, but managing that is extremely difficult. You need to slow the disc rotation, NOT reverse it. Bruce Roe

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      • #4
        Originally posted by generatorlabs View Post
        Any excess power I generate during the day is cancelled out by my night time consumption.
        You are feeding in during the day and using at night......
        THAT IS NET Metering.

        They can turn off your service since you are not in compliance.

        OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
          You are feeding in during the day and using at night......
          THAT IS NET Metering.
          They can turn off your service since you are not in compliance.
          From his post:
          "The system has been inspected by the AHJ and is currently on-line."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by generatorlabs View Post
            My question is this. If I just left the current watt meter in place would it be able to accurately show PV generated power? I have observed the meter spinning backwards in the day-time and at night spinning forwards. My concern is that it is tracking watts accurately in one direction but not the other. Would I be better off calling the utility and have them swap it out?
            If your utility is OK with the meter remaining in place, and it is a standard bidirectional mechanical meter, then you should have no problems. I used a bidirectional mechanical meter for years on my first solar install without problems. From my (very rough) measurements it was pretty accurate.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
              From his post:
              "The system has been inspected by the AHJ and is currently on-line."
              All grid tie system get inspected by the AHJ. That does not give you permission to operate though.
              The PoCo gives you permission to operate.
              If they are not ok with it and require a net meter agreement (almost all do) then you do not have permission to operate and they can shut everything down.
              OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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              • #8
                Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
                All grid tie system get inspected by the AHJ. That does not give you permission to operate though.
                The PoCo gives you permission to operate.
                The utility has a valid application for a customer solar site but they don't seem to care.
                From what I can tell they just wanted the $100 application fee.
                If they want to kick up dust it will only be their fault; I put them on notice and they approved the engineering plans I filed.
                I did call them again today to follow up. They tentatively will send a new meter out next week.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Mind sharing where you live and who is the Poco?

                  Pg&E in CA allows customers to opt out of smart meters, but with an added monthly charge (like 10 bucks) and upfront cost. However you can't do any TOU plans, of course. What I'm unsure of is whether they'll let you sign the interconnect, opt into net metering, but just with flat teir billing, using the mechanical meter.

                  And yes, not just semantics, but here you don't have permission to turn on your own solar system until they give it to you, once the interconnect agreement is finalized. It's their grid you are connected to.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by generatorlabs View Post

                    The utility has a valid application for a customer solar site but they don't seem to care.
                    From what I can tell they just wanted the $100 application fee.
                    If they want to kick up dust it will only be their fault; I put them on notice and they approved the engineering plans I filed.
                    I did call them again today to follow up. They tentatively will send a new meter out next week.
                    Well if you haven't paid the application fee then they don't have a valid application.
                    And Further it is an APPLICATION, that means you asked to operate a solar plant, they have not granted permission yet.
                    OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by cebury View Post
                      Mind sharing where you live and who is the Poco?


                      .
                      +1, If we knew where your connection was we could get a better answer for you.

                      Now a little about watt-hour meters. Your existing meter whether digital or analog may already be 'capable' of rotating backwards. You can easily check this since your system is already running in 'test'. Turn off everything electric in the house, and watch the meter, digital will count down, analog also.

                      I believe most utilities were required (by another agency or their own procedures) to replace the meters with a net meter because the original meters were not tested (or calibrated) in the reverse direction. If no record of calibration in reverse exited, they could not dispute customer claims regarding accuracy
                      I know we never reverse calibrations for household meters at PSE&G in NJ, goverened by NJ Board of Public Utilities.

                      I used the word 'test' above because your utility may allow you to test your system for some period of time before notifying them it is ready for approval.

                      I you planned on selling energy credits (in NJ) you would need another meter to totalize panel output alone
                      Dennis
                      SE5000 18 each SW185

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post

                        Well if you haven't paid the application fee then they don't have a valid application.
                        The check for the application fee was cashed by the utility weeks ago.
                        The application was approved verbally once I sent them the required engineering plans and proof of homeowners insurance.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by generatorlabs View Post

                          The check for the application fee was cashed by the utility weeks ago.
                          The application was approved verbally once I sent them the required engineering plans and proof of homeowners insurance.
                          Ok so they have a valid application (request for interconnect)
                          you received approval before proceeding which is the correct thing to do

                          This is still not permission to operate. It means that they are accepting the application and plans as submitted.
                          It is contingent on passing inspection, and the PoCos inspections and testing as well.
                          Till you get that you do not have PTO. (permission to operate).

                          It can be turned on for testing only till PTO.
                          There are generally time limits on their approval once they are notified that it has passed inspections etc. but even if they go over the time limit you are not allowed to turn it on. You have other legal recourse if they take longer than the time period.

                          In my personal case they took 2 months grant PTO even though the time period is 1 month. I did have my system on (for testing during that time after confirming that both the mechanical dial AND the numbers spin backwards (not always the case).

                          With our customers we do NOT recomend that they turn the systems on till PTO.
                          OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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