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  • New member attempting DIY in-grid

    Hello everyone, I just joined the forum. I live in FL and just bought 12 used SunPower 305W panels to install on my roof. I've also already purchased a keco 3502XI inverter new.
    I dont want to purchase anything else until I can get my permit granted as I already feel slightly overwhelmed by the permitting process and requirements. From what i've gathered here, I have begun to design my permit packet on solar design tools and I created a rail structure on Iron ridge's site.

    If any users are familiar with FL area, im in unincorporated Volusia County. I'm trying to determine if the permit packet solardesigntools provides me will be adequate or if I would still need them stamped by an engineer.

    I have a new home (October 2018) with a hipped metal roof, and I still have all the load test documents from the truss company, I figured it would be helpful to submit with my permit packet. I am placing the panels on the south side of the roof, and plan to run the wiring through my attic to the north side of the house where my main panel is, unless it would make more sense to put the inverter closer to the panels and run the wiring as AC to the panel through the attic, still trying to determine that..

    Other than that I believe the last thing I need to figure out is the rapid shutdown, i'm finding it difficult to figure out what devices will work with my inverter..

    Thanks for all the help!

    James

  • #2
    First, make sure your local building department allows used panels to be installed.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
      First, make sure your local building department allows used panels to be installed.
      Is it common that they dont? Panels have a higher life expectancy than most roofs.. Only thing i've seen with used is that they're not eligible for federal tax credits

      Comment


      • #4
        So I got some insight from one of the support members on solardesigntool, (these guys are really helpful) I looked up that the kaco 3502xi inverter I purchased does have positive grounding capabilities, and on another thread a long time member had stated that you can use a totally independent rapid shutdown system, so maybe not all hope is lost?

        I'm investigating why a single-line diagram could not be created for your system. The short reason is that these modules are so old that it is not possible to create a system with them that will comply with current electrical and fire codes. Therefore, the system just aborts the creation of an electrical diagram. (But it should have provided you with a more helpful note in the instructions about this)

        This design includes a very (very) old Sunpower module (these are 10 years old or older). The old Sunpower modules were positive-grounded and could only be used with inverters that could be configured for positive-grounded DC arrays. At that time, the inverters were all negative grounded. Since these modules were very popular back in the day, inverter companies made it possible to configure some of their models for positive-ground in order to be compatible with the Sunpower modules. But these modules fell out of favor after a few years and Sunpower began manufacturing modules that did not require positive-grounded DC arrays. As a result, inverter companies stopped producing inverters that could be configured for positive-grounded systems. Then a few years later, tranformerless inverters (ungrounded) became popular and took over the market.

        With the release of NEC 2014, systems with string inverters were required to provide something called "Rapid Shutdown". This meant that string inverter systems needed to include a new component that allow fire fighters to shut power off at the array within fractions of a second from an initiator located near the point of connection. Companies scrambled to produce this device before this requirement came into effect. Since the only residential inverters on the market at this time were transformerless inverters, all of the rapid shutdown devices were designed to work with ungrounded arrays. As a result, there are no rapid shutdown devices on the market that will work with positive-grounded arrays. Hence, our system is unable to create an NEC-compliant system for this module.

        Other issues are that current fire codes require UL1703 compliance to ensure that the solar array does not reduce the fire rating of the roof it is installed on. These modules are not certified to this new standard. Additionally, when using any modern racking system, the preferred equipment grounding method (which is different then positive-grounded, negative-grounded, and ungrounded arrays) is to bond the module frames to the rails bonding clamps. But to use these the racking system needs to be certified to be UL2703 compliant when used with that specific module. These modules have not been tested with any racking system for UL2703 Grounding and Bonding compliance.

        To design an NEC compliant system with this module, you may need to jump through many hoops. For the rapid shutdown device, I would suggest contacting Midnite solar and getting a custom combiner with relays and a ground bar in it and then hiring an experienced designer to draw up the SLD so it is compliant.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by eyyopomps View Post

          Is it common that they dont? Panels have a higher life expectancy than most roofs.. Only thing i've seen with used is that they're not eligible for federal tax credits
          Some do, some don't. The life expectancy of panels vs. the life expectancy of the roof they will be attached to has little to do with allowing or disallowing used panels.

          NOMB, but from what you describe in this and the other thread, if it was me - and it's obviously not, I'd make an appointment with the AHJ, take all my info and drawings to the meeting and ask what needs to be done or even if it's possible given what you have. Bet you'll save a lot of time and effort. You need more information and education than can be accurately provided here.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

            Some do, some don't. The life expectancy of panels vs. the life expectancy of the roof they will be attached to has little to do with allowing or disallowing used panels.

            NOMB, but from what you describe in this and the other thread, if it was me - and it's obviously not, I'd make an appointment with the AHJ, take all my info and drawings to the meeting and ask what needs to be done or even if it's possible given what you have. Bet you'll save a lot of time and effort. You need more information and education than can be accurately provided here.
            J.P.M. I agree, and I plan to, but many on this forum have already helped me uncover plenty of things I didn't understand. I'd already be 10x more likely to have a better discussion with my AHJ now than if I had never posted on here.. I don't have any friends that know anything about solar, and local solar contractors don't seem very happy to help DIY'ers (which I understand).

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by eyyopomps View Post

              J.P.M. I don't have any friends that know anything about solar.
              Neither do I, and I never really did.

              The more informed you are, the better will be your questions, both here and at the AHJ. And, as something of a matter of courtesy, the less time of others will be wasted. You'll also acquire information more efficiently.

              But aside from all that, simply getting answers here without some prior knowledge of the basics behind why things are as they are is not the most efficient way to acquire necessary knowledge and avoid mistakes.

              Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                Neither do I, and I never really did.

                The more informed you are, the better will be your questions, both here and at the AHJ. And, as something of a matter of courtesy, the less time of others will be wasted. You'll also acquire information more efficiently.

                But aside from all that, simply getting answers here without some prior knowledge of the basics behind why things are as they are is not the most efficient way to acquire necessary knowledge and avoid mistakes.

                Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.
                Am I wasting people's time? I'm on an open forum and created a thread titled I was a new member attempting a DIY. I had looked into information and watched many videos for a while before buying panels and before posting on here, but the subject its a lot more complex than sticking these things out in the sun..

                I've been a part of many different forums (Tesla, Reddit, TDIclub, Kawasaki, etc..) where help no matter the posters knowledge or skill level and was always given information along with plenty of passionate discussions about the subject. Isn't that was these are all about? I would expect it more-so on a topic of something that has to do with sustainability and renewables.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by eyyopomps View Post

                  Am I wasting people's time? I'm on an open forum and created a thread titled I was a new member attempting a DIY. I had looked into information and watched many videos for a while before buying panels and before posting on here, but the subject its a lot more complex than sticking these things out in the sun..

                  I've been a part of many different forums (Tesla, Reddit, TDIclub, Kawasaki, etc..) where help no matter the posters knowledge or skill level and was always given information along with plenty of passionate discussions about the subject. Isn't that was these are all about? I would expect it more-so on a topic of something that has to do with sustainability and renewables.
                  Opinions vary. And to me, opinion only, from what you've described you've done and got yourself into so far, looks like your education could have been more thorough. Seems to me you did the ready, fire, aim method. Take my spoor as spirited discussion that you might benefit from more self acquired information on the basics before you tackle something that's a lot more complex than sticking things in the sun (but gets a lot less complex if you have the basics under your belt).

                  As I wrote, take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

                  I'd also respectfully suggest that not everyone who tells you what you may not like or what you may disagree with is trying to hurt your feelings.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm not into internet arguments, especially ones that don't create any value or learning experience. I'll get this figured out, thanks.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by eyyopomps View Post
                      .................... help no matter the posters knowledge or skill level and was always given information along with plenty of passionate discussions about the subject. Isn't that was these are all about? I would expect it more-so on a topic of something that has to do with sustainability and renewables.
                      No, you are learning things and not wasting our time. You are asking questions.

                      I'll answer one about the used panels and the AHJ / inspectors. No, not all area allow used panels. Panels can sustain invisible damage that takes a couple years to appear. Torquing the panel to get it out of a rack, messing up mounting holes - were they #8 and drilled out to #10 and now have less material around the hole. Are seals damaged and can water ingress cause a fire hazard in 2 years.
                      They could be OK for a pole mount or out building, but not an inhabited residence, Local codes vary


                      As to "sustainability and renewables" most of us are realists here, not greenwashers. We call out scammy looking stuff when we see it, ban peddlers selling unlisted crap and dangerous methods.
                      Other sites tolerate that stuff happening, but not here.
                      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

                        No, you are learning things and not wasting our time. You are asking questions.

                        I'll answer one about the used panels and the AHJ / inspectors. No, not all area allow used panels. Panels can sustain invisible damage that takes a couple years to appear. Torquing the panel to get it out of a rack, messing up mounting holes - were they #8 and drilled out to #10 and now have less material around the hole. Are seals damaged and can water ingress cause a fire hazard in 2 years.
                        They could be OK for a pole mount or out building, but not an inhabited residence, Local codes vary


                        As to "sustainability and renewables" most of us are realists here, not greenwashers. We call out scammy looking stuff when we see it, ban peddlers selling unlisted crap and dangerous methods.
                        Other sites tolerate that stuff happening, but not here.
                        Thanks Mike90250 I have 2.5 acres and can do a ground mount, maybe thats a better option, could be safer that way and would avoid roof damage. I'm a realist as well, I started this project for the saving, but the feel good aspect sort of comes with it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by eyyopomps
                          Thanks Mike90250 I have 2.5 acres and can do a ground mount, maybe
                          thats a better option, could be safer that way and would avoid roof damage.
                          There are lots of reasons to go with a ground mount, if you can afford the extra resources needed.
                          A big one, it much more lends itself to DIY. My list has 44 reasons. Bruce Roe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by eyyopomps View Post
                            Hello everyone, I just joined the forum. I live in FL and just bought 12 used SunPower 305W panels to install on my roof. I've also already purchased a keco 3502XI inverter new.

                            Other than that I believe the last thing I need to figure out is the rapid shutdown, i'm finding it difficult to figure out what devices will work with my inverter..

                            Thanks for all the help!

                            James
                            I use this.
                            shut.png
                            Last edited by Paul Land; 03-05-2019, 09:53 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SmithsJunk
                              I'm sorry to post this attached to someone elses thread but it seems the only way I can post. Can someone please unlock my ability to start a thread so I can get the help I need. Thank you.
                              Welcome to Solar Panel Talk

                              It may take a day or so for you to get permission to create your own post. So until then please be patient and enjoy the forum.

                              Comment

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