Small load AC camp in Northern Ontario setup and suggestion

[northshoremb]

Want to start of by saying hi to everyone as I'm a greenhorn and this is my first post.
From what I've been reading and studying he's last 2 weeks solar can get complicated with all different parameters to consider. Every hour I read I learn something new that actual contridicts my previous thinking. My father in law and me are installing solar at our Northern Ontario camp that currently is being powered my AC and a 2000 watt Honda suitcase genny. All of our appliances (hot water, stove, fridge, freezer) all run off Propane so no big loads.

Here is what we would run off solar and all specs of what we would need and use it for

Led lighting 3w
Satellite 30w
Lcd TV 110w
DVD player 35w
Small Table fan 15w

At one time we will not be more then 180w with usage around 700-900w for the day. In the no snow months we usually get up to camp around noon-2pm on a fri and stay till noon on a Sunday so rely only using power the Friday night and Saturday cause Sunday is wake up and pack to come home. Maybe twice a summer we might stay 4-5 days but can suppliment power if needed with the 2000w Genny

So I will list " what we have" and what we will be needing cause don't want to buy stuff that is not needed

1: Already have Sunforce 2500w Pure Sine Inverter with remote on/off (my father in law jumped the gun last year buying it before he knew what was needed) I know it's way overkill so is it suggested to sell and get a smaller one and what benefits for our situation would we see with a smaller 400-600w inverter?

2: Already have (four) TCR-235 6V 235AH 478RC/25A DEEP CYCLE Batteries (BIG 6)
We were originally thinking 2s2p for 12v 470ah but if we did need a smaller inverter should we do 24v 235ah or stay 12v higher ah?

3: Already have (four) 100w Sunforce crystalline 5.8a 17.1v working volts which I presume is max power and 21.4v would be open circuit? (Stats on panels only say 17.1 working volts and don't say short circuit volts)
Solar chart show 2.0-2.9 hours sunlight/day on worst days of year which we would be at camp anyways
Should we set up all 4 in series for higher Volts or 2s2p????

4: it's 35 feet from our panel arrays to the spot where the controller and batteries are and 12 feet from there to the AC breaker panel


5: on days that there isn't any sun or say winter time how should we wire in our Suitcase Honda 2000w genny to run camp and not damage anything? If we needed to run the genny to charge the batteries can it also be running power in the camp at the same time?


So that's what we have and still need cable, MPPT Controller and whatever else such as a junction box and breakers

So with the low demands we need and the panels, batteries and inverter we have what do you suggest we get for MPPT controller, cable gauges from panels to controller, controller to batteries, battery to battery and battery to inverters, and how should we set up panels?

6: what MPPT controller would we need
7: what sizes wires do we need
8: do we need breakers between panel and controller

SUNKING I wanted to send this in a message to you but can't find out how. I see you really know your stuff

[sdold]

I can't tell where you are located, but four of those panels (400W total) look like they would cost you close to $1000. You could probably get a couple of 250W grid-tie panels and end up with more power for half the money. They might even take up less space.

[northshoremb]

I can't tell where you are located, but four of those panels (400W total) look like they would cost you close to $1000. You could probably get a couple of 250W grid-tie panels and end up with more power for half the money. They might even take up less space.

I'm located in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario which is where Lake Superior and Lake Huron meet at the Canada/USA border. Camp is 3 hours north East Of Wawa.
Anyways the panels are retail $400 each but always go on sale for $100 so each time we always grabbed one and now have 4 that we mounted on our metal roof last week. So $1 Canadian per watt seemed good to us

[Logan5]

Are you sure your LCD TV draws 110 watt's? If this is not a huge fancy LCD TV, you should consider a smaller screen or a newer more efficient unit. some older screen were florescent back lit. you will find much better in LED back lit TV's. There is no point using an old TV and having to increase the size of your battery because of it. I have a 15" TV that uses only 14 watts, it replaced a similar unit that used 40 watts. You can not depend on the label for your watt information, you must use a watt meter or properly set up multimeter to know your actual draw.

[northshoremb]

Are you sure your LCD TV draws 110 watt's? If this is not a huge fancy LCD TV, you should consider a smaller screen or a newer more efficient unit. some older screen were florescent back lit. you will find much better in LED back lit TV's. There is no point using an old TV and having to increase the size of your battery because of it. I have a 15" TV that uses only 14 watts, it replaced a similar unit that used 40 watts. You can not depend on the label for your watt information, you must use a watt meter or properly set up multimeter to know your actual draw.

It's a 32" LCD tv and just guessing the wattage from other 32" LCD tvs. It's up at camp so can't see the back of it right now for actual. Only 2 years old

[northshoremb]

Any insight on if I should go 2s2p or 4s and what size MPPT controller I would need? Originally we were going to do all 4 in parallel for 12v and high Amps with 45amp controller but after some reading see that it's smarter to go higher Volts and low amps so you can use thinner gauge wire and smaller controller. Just need some guidance

[Logan5]

It's a 32" LCD tv and just guessing the wattage from other 32" LCD tvs. It's up at camp so can't see the back of it right now for actual. Only 2 years old

you won't learn much from the label, To go off grid as you are planning, you should test these appliances and know what you are using. 2yrs is old by todays standards. again, you do not want to have to buy extra battery for older appliances, if new more efficient models are avail.

[Sunking]

Let's put you on the right track and save you some Buck$

1. Forget the 2000 Watt Inverter OK? When you do that, it requires a minimum size battery, and batteries take minimum Solar Panel power requirements. A 2000 watt Inverter requires a monster size battery of 800 pounds that cost you a couple thousand dollars. At 12 volts require two very expensive 80 amp Charge Controllers ans a 1500 solar panel. So let's be reasonable you have no need for a 2000 watt Inverter. I wil talk about that in a minute. Stay tuned.

2. It sounds like you want to have about 1 Kwh of usable electricity per day when at camp right? When you are at camp just a few days at most right? So again let's keep things real and save some more money. If you used 1 Kwh per day every day of the year, then you would need a 12 volt 400 AH battery, but not for a camp with a genny handy. C'mon lets be reasonable and build something that works, and does not cost a fortune. We can do that.

3. OK the distance is an issue, it can be dealt with but cost money.

OK enough, let's get to work and build you something that will work.

A. Forget 100 watt Battery Panels. They cost 2 to 4 times more than Grid Tied Panels, and 1/2 to 1/3 the size in wattage. All you need is a single 200 to 250 watt GT panel. Don't worry about Winter, you cannot buy enough panels, no sense trying. That is what they make a generator for. Using a single 200 to 250 watt GT panels is going to save you a few hundred dollars, and that buys a lot of beer. God knows you Canooks like to drink beer right? I know when I was young I would come up in hunting season, buy you guys a lot of beer to take to camp. and kept your girls company while you were gone.

B. If you stick with a 200 to 250 watt panel all you need is a good quality 15-Amp MPPT Controller. None better than a Morningstar Sun Saver MPPT. Max input at 12 volt battery is 200 watts, but 250 will not hurt anything and gives you another rSun Hour which you desperately need up in Canada. Otherwise and if you are dead set on more panel wattage go with a 24 volt battery. The same controller can input 400 watts with a 24 volt battery, but you will need two panel wired in series. That will help with the long distance cable run between panels and battery. .

C. OK for Battery you are on the right track. Golf Cart batteries are the way to go. But you do NOT NEED four of the 6-volt 230 AH batteries, you just need two wired in series for 12 volts. A 12-volt 230 AH battery has 2700 watt hours of capacity, and in reality you will only use 1/3 of that in a day (700 to 1000 watt hours). That is fine for a part time system. If it was used everyday of the year, yeah you would want 400 to 500 AH. But you do not need and, so save some more dollars for beer. I will keep the girls company for you while you are gone. I got Blue Pills and Panama Red. We will have a great time and you will never be missed. Now if you want to go 24 volts and use 400 watt sof panels, then go with four 6-Volt batteries, but not needed OK?

D. Now for an Inverter. All you need is 400n to 500 watts and no larger. Use some of the money you saved for a good True Sine Wave model. I can help you with manufacture and models.

E. Now for a Battery Charger for the genny. All you need is a good 12 or 24 volt Marine Grade 20 to 40 amp Charger. Ideally you would like it to be C/6 if you can afford it. So if you had say 240 AH batteries / 6 = 40 amps. Those get expensive at 40 amps. The reason to get them that large is to minimize gen run time and fuel burn. A 2 Kva genny can handle up to a 130 amps at 12 volt battery and 65 amps at 24 volt battery. So you have more than enough genny.

F is voltage drop for the long run. The easiest and cheapest way to deal with it is keep the Panels, Charge Controller, Batteries, and Inverter together, then use a good Extension Cord. I would make one with an SO 3-12 AWG and a Quad Recept Box. SO Cord is hard use, soft rubber, and outdoor rated. Otherwise you are going to likely need some #6 AWG between Panels and Controller and 70 feet of that is 50 beers.

Questions? Ask now before you open your wallet.

[northshoremb]

Let's put you on the right track and save you some Buck$

1. Forget the 2000 Watt Inverter OK? When you do that, it requires a minimum size battery, and batteries take minimum Solar Panel power requirements. A 2000 watt Inverter requires a monster size battery of 800 pounds that cost you a couple thousand dollars. At 12 volts require two very expensive 80 amp Charge Controllers ans a 1500 solar panel. So let's be reasonable you have no need for a 2000 watt Inverter. I wil talk about that in a minute. Stay tuned.

2. It sounds like you want to have about 1 Kwh of usable electricity per day when at camp right? When you are at camp just a few days at most right? So again let's keep things real and save some more money. If you used 1 Kwh per day every day of the year, then you would need a 12 volt 400 AH battery, but not for a camp with a genny handy. C'mon lets be reasonable and build something that works, and does not cost a fortune. We can do that.

3. OK the distance is an issue, it can be dealt with but cost money.

OK enough, let's get to work and build you something that will work.

A. Forget 100 watt Battery Panels. They cost 2 to 4 times more than Grid Tied Panels, and 1/2 to 1/3 the size in wattage. All you need is a single 200 to 250 watt GT panel. Don't worry about Winter, you cannot buy enough panels, no sense trying. That is what they make a generator for. Using a single 200 to 250 watt GT panels is going to save you a few hundred dollars, and that buys a lot of beer. God knows you Canooks like to drink beer right? I know when I was young I would come up in hunting season, buy you guys a lot of beer to take to camp. and kept your girls company while you were gone.

B. If you stick with a 200 to 250 watt panel all you need is a good quality 15-Amp MPPT Controller. None better than a Morningstar Sun Saver MPPT. Max input at 12 volt battery is 200 watts, but 250 will not hurt anything and gives you another rSun Hour which you desperately need up in Canada. Otherwise and if you are dead set on more panel wattage go with a 24 volt battery. The same controller can input 400 watts with a 24 volt battery, but you will need two panel wired in series. That will help with the long distance cable run between panels and battery. .

C. OK for Battery you are on the right track. Golf Cart batteries are the way to go. But you do NOT NEED four of the 6-volt 230 AH batteries, you just need two wired in series for 12 volts. A 12-volt 230 AH battery has 2700 watt hours of capacity, and in reality you will only use 1/3 of that in a day (700 to 1000 watt hours). That is fine for a part time system. If it was used everyday of the year, yeah you would want 400 to 500 AH. But you do not need and, so save some more dollars for beer. I will keep the girls company for you while you are gone. I got Blue Pills and Panama Red. We will have a great time and you will never be missed. Now if you want to go 24 volts and use 400 watt sof panels, then go with four 6-Volt batteries, but not needed OK?

D. Now for an Inverter. All you need is 400n to 500 watts and no larger. Use some of the money you saved for a good True Sine Wave model. I can help you with manufacture and models.

E. Now for a Battery Charger for the genny. All you need is a good 12 or 24 volt Marine Grade 20 to 40 amp Charger. Ideally you would like it to be C/6 if you can afford it. So if you had say 240 AH batteries / 6 = 40 amps. Those get expensive at 40 amps. The reason to get them that large is to minimize gen run time and fuel burn. A 2 Kva genny can handle up to a 130 amps at 12 volt battery and 65 amps at 24 volt battery. So you have more than enough genny.

F is voltage drop for the long run. The easiest and cheapest way to deal with it is keep the Panels, Charge Controller, Batteries, and Inverter together, then use a good Extension Cord. I would make one with an SO 3-12 AWG and a Quad Recept Box. SO Cord is hard use, soft rubber, and outdoor rated. Otherwise you are going to likely need some #6 AWG between Panels and Controller and 70 feet of that is 50 beers.

Questions? Ask now before you open your wallet.

First thanks for the in depth reply I appreciate it.

Ok the one thing a couple of you missed is we already have the 4-100w panels and installed them on the south side of roof last week. On sale they were only $100 Canadian so that's like $73 American.
Also can't keep the panels close to the Batteries, inverter and Controller cause panels are on south roof and the water tower where they will be placed is in the North East corner of camp so only option is that 35 foot run. Also already have those 4- 6v 235ah batteries so if that's a lot for what we run then all the better cause leaves us few days reserve.

So considering we already have the 4 panels and 4 batteries how should I wire the 4 panels and at 4 5.8amp PA els what MPPT controller you suggest? Also what would you suggest for the 400-500w Pure Sine Inverter cause I will show my father in law your response and show that it is more economical and feasible to sell the 2000w Pure Sine inverter he bought and get one that is better suited.

So if I wire the batteries 2s2p for 12v 470ah what gauge wire for those compared to gauge from panels?

[Sunking]

So if I wire the batteries 2s2p for 12v 470ah what gauge wire for those compared to gauge from panels?

Are you married to 12 volts? 24 volts would be better and lots of Inverters for 24 volts. No change in battery or panel. You just wire the batteries in series and save money on fuses and wire. Trust me it is Smart Money.

The Outback Controller would be just fine with one Caveat, and another reason you should go 24 volts. If you operate at 12 volts, maximum panel wattage is 300 watts. At 24 volts up to 600 Watts. With 400 watts of panels on a 12 volt battery requires a 30-Amp controllers and that is more expensive. Contrary to what you might have been told or believe, higher voltage is less expensive and more efficient. Great example is Charge Controllers. A 40-Amp Controller maximum power input is limited by battery voltage as follows.

500 watts @ 12
1000 watts @ 24
2000 watts @ 48.

With the OB Controller wire all the panels in series. Makes no difference if 12 or 24 volts. This makes the 30 feet wire run NO PROBLEM. Panel Current is 6 amps max. Use dirt cheap inexpensive 14 AWG wire. At 6 amps, 35-feet 1-Way wire distance is less than 2% voltage/power loss. Be aware that has nothing to do with the wire sizes between Controller-Battery, and Battery-Inverter. Only between panels and Controller. OK?.

With your 4 batteries there is another cost savings. With parallel strings means 6 fuses and a lot more hardware. Wire them all up in series for 24 volts, and you only need 2 fuses. One facing the Controller and one facing the Inverter with very little hardware.

Sell that 12-volt 2000 Watt boat anchor of an Inverter. Get a 24 volt TSW Inverter, and with the added battery voltage you can go up to 1000 Watts (no higher) if you want, but really more than you need. 500 to 750 is perfect. Here are some suggestions:

Samlex 24 volt 600-Watt
Samlex 24 volt 1000 Watt

Some other good brands are Go Power and Wagan.

[northshoremb]

Are you married to 12 volts? 24 volts would be better and lots of Inverters for 24 volts. No change in battery or panel. You just wire the batteries in series and save money on fuses and wire. Trust me it is Smart Money.

The Outback Controller would be just fine with one Caveat, and another reason you should go 24 volts. If you operate at 12 volts, maximum panel wattage is 300 watts. At 24 volts up to 600 Watts. With 400 watts of panels on a 12 volt battery requires a 30-Amp controllers and that is more expensive. Contrary to what you might have been told or believe, higher voltage is less expensive and more efficient. Great example is Charge Controllers. A 40-Amp Controller maximum power input is limited by battery voltage as follows.

500 watts @ 12
1000 watts @ 24
2000 watts @ 48.

With the OB Controller wire all the panels in series. Makes no difference if 12 or 24 volts. This makes the 30 feet wire run NO PROBLEM. Panel Current is 6 amps max. Use dirt cheap inexpensive 14 AWG wire. At 6 amps, 35-feet 1-Way wire distance is less than 2% voltage/power loss. Be aware that has nothing to do with the wire sizes between Controller-Battery, and Battery-Inverter. Only between panels and Controller. OK?.

With your 4 batteries there is another cost savings. With parallel strings means 6 fuses and a lot more hardware. Wire them all up in series for 24 volts, and you only need 2 fuses. One facing the Controller and one facing the Inverter with very little hardware.

Sell that 12-volt 2000 Watt boat anchor of an Inverter. Get a 24 volt TSW Inverter, and with the added battery voltage you can go up to 1000 Watts (no higher) if you want, but really more than you need. 500 to 750 is perfect. Here are some suggestions:

Samlex 24 volt 600-Watt
Samlex 24 volt 1000 Watt

Some other good brands are Go Power and Wagan.

No we are not married to 12v if 24v is better. I just wanted to kw what direction to go with the 4 batteries, inverter and panels we already had.
So that's what I'm going to do is run the 4-100w panels in series, get a MPPT controller that works. Also what are your thoughts on the Tracer models
(Tracer 2210a 20amp or tracer 1210a 10amp??????)
Definitely being able to run 14awg from panels to controller would save a bunch compared to 1ga-2ga that the calculators suggested.

Putting 4-6v batteries in series to make 24v keeps the AH down to 235 so that doesn't affect anything compared to 12v at 470ah? Sorry for questions I'm new to this especially 12v vs 24v.

I absolutely thank you for your help so far cause without this info he would have wired the panels in parallel for 12v, bought a PWM controller and tried to use the 2000w inverter. Plus he would have tried to use 10-14awg wire to run 30-35 feet

[Svencool]

It's a 32" LCD tv and just guessing the wattage from other 32" LCD tvs. It's up at camp so can't see the back of it right now for actual. Only 2 years old

Just use a watt meter and it will tell you what that TV draws so there will be no guessing. Its only about $20 well worth it.....