More panels or more batteries?

[RedDenver]

Aquion is not compatible as 60% of the energy is not available to the equipment. They have two huge strikes against them.

1. They must be charged and discharge very slowly which is not compatible with Solar. Solar demands to be charged at C/10 to C/4. Likewise discharged as high as C/4. Aquion cannot tolerate rates faster than C/20. The cells internal resistance is way too high. Only way to work around that issue is a much larger than needed battery capacity.

2. Charge/Discharge Curves are way outside equipment range. Example a 48 volt stack is 40 to 56 volts. Anything below 46 volts is not accessible. There are two ways to work around that. Again a much larger battery capacity than required. Second is for al equipment manufactures to redesign their equipment to work over that large of a voltage spread and that is not going to happen.

That is why they are going bankrupt.

Following specs come from the operation manual I found here (under documents tab): https://www.altestore.com/store/deep...ck-48v-p11941/
1) Each S-line stack can take 17A current. Do you consider that slow? The internal resistance will reduce the efficiency compared to lead acid, for example. But, as you mention, the capacity can be increased, and the higher internal resistance helps here as up to 12 stacks can be connected in parallel, which allows higher total current. For example, if you have a CC that can put out 80A, then 5 stacks in parallel can take max output (80/17=4.7). That of course requires a higher total battery capacity for the system, which won't be appropriate for all situations, but for systems that need higher energy capacity this may make sense.

2) This might have been true for the first generation of AHI, but the current generation has all of it's specifications made with respect to standard 48V inverters. The voltage range for AHI is 40-57.6 V, which meets most (all?) the inverter and CC specs I'm familiar with. And why isn't energy below 46V available? The recommended settings in the manual show that the battery LVCO can be set as low as 36V (outback FX and Radian inverter settings).

I don't know whether Aquion is going bankrupt or not. Do you have a source for that?

Having said all that, I agree that AHI is a new technology that doesn't have enough field data to verify the manufacturer claims. The battery might perform better than expected or it might be an expensive paper weight. And the warranty will of course be useless if Aquion goes bankrupt.

[SunEagle]

Look I am not saying that Aquion is going bankrupt. (Actually just saw an article about Duke Energy using their technology in an energy storage system in North Carolina.)

What I am saying is look at what one of their 2.6kWh battery provides over it's lifetime compared to what it will cost you to purchase and install one. When you add up the cost the $/kWh starts to skyrocket. That is not a cost effective venture in my book.

[RedDenver]

Look I am not saying that Aquion is going bankrupt. (Actually just saw an article about Duke Energy using their technology in an energy storage system in North Carolina.)

What I am saying is look at what one of their 2.6kWh battery provides over it's lifetime compared to what it will cost you to purchase and install one. When you add up the cost the $/kWh starts to skyrocket. That is not a cost effective venture in my book.

I was replying to Sunking.

But here's where I've got a simple LCOE for the AHI: 2.6 kWh for 3000 cycles of 100% DoD is 7800 kWh over the lifetime of the battery. They cost about $1200, so roughly $0.15/kWh. That's not competitve with the grid in most places, but could be in higher cost areas depending on what the energy generation costs are (I think solar is roughly $0.05-0.10 right now but that's a guess). Are there other costs I'm missing?

[Logan005]

I have been evaluating back up storage options for the past year. Aquion only starts to become attractive at half it's current price. even considering they can last up to 16yrs in a UPS non cyclical environment. I do want to know more about their solar charging. How long they take to be fully charged matters when using solar to maintain them. A little less so for a UPS scenario. The iron Edison batteries are attractive at 1/3 their current price. May be the perfect option for true off grid living, If you can afford it.

[SunEagle]

I was replying to Sunking.

But here's where I've got a simple LCOE for the AHI: 2.6 kWh for 3000 cycles of 100% DoD is 7800 kWh over the lifetime of the battery. They cost about $1200, so roughly $0.15/kWh. That's not competitve with the grid in most places, but could be in higher cost areas depending on what the energy generation costs are (I think solar is roughly $0.05-0.10 right now but that's a guess). Are there other costs I'm missing?

Yeah if you believe those numbers. More than likely the best it will do is 80% DOD and 2500 cycles. That starts to push the cost of kWh up.

You also forgot to add taxes, shipping and installation costs which will increase that price of $1200 a wee bit.

Don't get blinded by advertising hype. Remember that battery system does not have a lot of real life testing to determine its true cycle and DOD life.

[Sunking]

Don't get blinded by advertising hype. Remember that battery system does not have a lot of real life testing to determine its true cycle and DOD life.

Bingo and if it were so great, then why 4 have they had 4 product revisions in 2 years? If they could do what they claimed would have already put Pb out of biz. The only thing keeping them afloat is grants and Investor dollars. They are deep in debt with poor sales. When I can see real proof I will change my mid. But as a pro, it is all hype and no substance. For same or less money I can get LFP that will run circles around Aquion.

[RedDenver]

I agree with you both; early adoption is a risky proposition. The technology looks promising, so I hope there's some substance to the company and it's claims.

[SunEagle]

I agree with you both; early adoption is a risky proposition. The technology looks promising, so I hope there's some substance to the company and it's claims.

If they continue to get deep pocket companies like Duke to invest in their battery technology then they might be able to hang in there long enough to improve what they have started.

[RedDenver]

If they continue to get deep pocket companies like Duke to invest in their battery technology then they might be able to hang in there long enough to improve what they have started.

Yep. I think their product is there technically (if their marketing numbers are accurate), Aquion needs to move to mass production to drive down costs. As I mentioned before, the jump to mass production is a difficult one. Might be better off getting bought by one of the big boys who can weather the transition and has the cash to take a risk with large production runs.

[Sundetective]

It cannot be a 12 volt system. That would be very foolish and extremely dangerous. Your batteries will have to be much larger than you have predicted and a Generator is a must have item to protect your $6000, 1500 pound battery you get to replace every few years. Without generator replace them every year.

Is that a problem for you?

King,

What about if he uses the Aquion Energy AHI Batteries that he can run into the ground,

most every night for years - and laugh about it ?

I haven't been around in a while.

Are the AHI Batteries OK yet for Torture Jobs or do we need to wait until the 4th Generation ?

Good luck on hitting 20,000 Posts this year.



Bill Blake

[Sunking]

What about if he uses the Aquion Energy AHI Batteries that he can run into the ground,

My list of belly aches are long with the battery.

To answer your question revolves around one of my doubts. Where is the user going to find equipment that can utilize all the energy of the battery down to 40 volts?

The discharge curve is very steep from 58 volts at full charge, to 40 volts full discharge. It can be done if equipment is made to do that.

Additionally the life cycle hype oroginally put out was pure fabrication. Today they only claim 3000 cycle to 70% DOD which is no better than a good FLA battery, and in some cases not as good as high end FLA with lower price tag. . Look for yourself. If I was going to spend that kin dof money on a battery, It would be on a Lithium that does not have all the performance limitations. The AHI battery cannot handle the high charge or discharge rates. It is paramount in a solar application to have at least C/8 or higher charge/discharge rates. The AHI bateries cannot tolerate that. Look at the chargge discharge curves and you will see what I mean. The batteries are made to be charged and discharged no greater than C/20. Ideally you would like to have C/6 for generator support. At C/20 is a lot of hours on a generator. Also note the Peukert effect on AH.

When you step back and take a look at the big picture, there are a lot better options out there at less cost with a proven track record. I would not use them.

[Logan005]

Most if not all of my electronics will be run off of 12vDC, what's the advantage of 24v?
It's for year round.
No generator planned, last time I checked they don't last too long.

One benefit I like very much, when you run a 24 volt battery bank and step down to 12.35 volts or so. your voltage will always be 12.35 volts. never 14.8 volts during solar charge modes. you run less risk of damaging sensitive electronics. It's a more stable source of 12 volts than connected directly to a 12 volt battery and solar charging system.

[Sundetective]

My list of belly aches are long with the battery.

To answer your question revolves around one of my doubts. Where is the user going to find equipment that can utilize all the energy of the battery down to 40 volts?

The discharge curve is very steep from 58 volts at full charge, to 40 volts full discharge. It can be done if equipment is made to do that.

Additionally the life cycle hype oroginally put out was pure fabrication. Today they only claim 3000 cycle to 70% DOD which is no better than a good FLA battery, and in some cases not as good as high end FLA with lower price tag. . Look for yourself. If I was going to spend that kin dof money on a battery, It would be on a Lithium that does not have all the performance limitations. The AHI battery cannot handle the high charge or discharge rates. It is paramount in a solar application to have at least C/8 or higher charge/discharge rates. The AHI bateries cannot tolerate that. Look at the chargge discharge curves and you will see what I mean. The batteries are made to be charged and discharged no greater than C/20. Ideally you would like to have C/6 for generator support. At C/20 is a lot of hours on a generator. Also note the Peukert effect on AH.

When you step back and take a look at the big picture, there are a lot better options out there at less cost with a proven track record. I would not use them.

King,

Haven't been following the AHI Story much but I figured you would.

I Likes a man that can see the 'dark side'
since so many of us want to believe
and enjoy getting sold before starting to dig.

Have you seen any RECENT Aquion Energy AHI Life Cycle Charts ??

In their Spec Sheets on their website they say:

"3000 Cycles To 70% Retained Capacity."

THAT'S IT !

Answer me this.

Are they just talking about old fashioned Battery Capacity ?

70% is Lean.

It got that Lean with Nickel Iron so Changhong and The Electric Indian

jacked the Lithium Hydroxide up by 400% and brought it up 10%.

Then they slipped back to half the LiOH again to be cheap.

We forgot all that anyway since NiFe way too nasty and too much hassle
no matter what you do,

Where are the SOC or DOD numbers with the Cycle Chart for AHI ??

Or is To 70% Retained Capacity

newfangled terminology like their new Hollywood swingin, Pittsburgh
style of marketing ?

It goes like this.

You have the most desirable woman in the world right at home but your so busy running
to bars and nightclubs all over the world
bragging how hot you are
that she never gets any.

Just promises.


P.S. In full disclosure I still sees a lot of promise in It No Lie, AHI once they get their mind right.

That last 10% or so of Lead Acid charging and the Sulphation just has to go someday.

This fairly cheap generator fuel is just the calm before the storm.



Bill Blake

[Sunking]

Have you seen any RECENT Aquion Energy AHI Life Cycle Charts ??

In their Spec Sheets on their website they say:

"3000 Cycles To 70% Retained Capacity."

THAT'S IT !

Bill I have shown you all AHI will let you see. Personally I tend to ignore manufacture test data and prefer 3rd party. Unless it is from a manufacture I learned to trust that has been around a long time and known to be straight up. Take C&D, Trojan, and Rolls as examples. All have been through 3rd party testing and their published data reflects 3rd party testing. They have some of the best warranties around, and you know they will be around for a long time.

Sorry I just do not get that same warm fuzzy feeling about AHI. 4 revisions in a short time, and no one has hardly ever heard of and no track record. Hell their claims have drastically changed in a short period of time. At least with NiFe you know what you are getting and what you are in for. There is a damn good reason reputable manufactures quit making them in the 70's. Look who makes them now. .

[Sundetective]

Following specs come from the operation manual I found here (under documents tab): https://www.altestore.com/store/deep...ck-48v-p11941/
1) Each S-line stack can take 17A current. Do you consider that slow? The internal resistance will reduce the efficiency compared to lead acid, for example. But, as you mention, the capacity can be increased, and the higher internal resistance helps here as up to 12 stacks can be connected in parallel, which allows higher total current. For example, if you have a CC that can put out 80A, then 5 stacks in parallel can take max output (80/17=4.7). That of course requires a higher total battery capacity for the system, which won't be appropriate for all situations, but for systems that need higher energy capacity this may make sense.

2) This might have been true for the first generation of AHI, but the current generation has all of it's specifications made with respect to standard 48V inverters. The voltage range for AHI is 40-57.6 V, which meets most (all?) the inverter and CC specs I'm familiar with. And why isn't energy below 46V available? The recommended settings in the manual show that the battery LVCO can be set as low as 36V (outback FX and Radian inverter settings).

I don't know whether Aquion is going bankrupt or not. Do you have a source for that?

Having said all that, I agree that AHI is a new technology that doesn't have enough field data to verify the manufacturer claims. The battery might perform better than expected or it might be an expensive paper weight. And the warranty will of course be useless if Aquion goes bankrupt.

RedDenver,

The Aquion Energy AHI Batteries are interesting and no doubt have a strong suit but I doubt that 17 Amps going into a THEORETICAL 54 Ah Stack (or so)
is going to really make it.

Their Graph shows that the 54 Ah can actually be much Less.

Just started looking at their Product Spec Sheet and the Graphs.

They seem to enjoy everything 'Cool and Slow' if possible. Whether it's the room temperature to prevent self discharge,
charging, discharge, etc.

Then again other than stirring up the electrolyte or a little equalizing my old Lead-Acid batteries tell me they prefer the same C25 to C13 that these dudes
seem to thrive at (if they could have it their way).

That would be a 'Lazy River' of say 50 to 60 Amps flowing into not 5 Stacks but a whole M110 Module of 12 Stacks if they had it their way
for maximum Battery Capacity. Can this be right ???

Of course with a huge enough battery bank it doesn't matter if you slice a tremendous amount of battery capacity off the top pushing them.

The AHI Battery seems to lose a lot of what they call "kWh Charge Energy" starting around C10 or worse (if I'm seeing it right).

There are 4 Charts at the bottom of their Spec Sheet and none of them look good if your a 'pusher' looking to

'Blivet Charge the Badboys'

where you needs to squeeze 10 pounds of poop into a 5 pound bag.

In other words a few hours of sun may not be enough unless you have a set-up like OffGridHawaiian (AKA / TopCat

where you can muscle the deal to death with $30,000.00 worth of batteries and pushing near 12 k dub in Solar Panels.

I'm Looking at AHI as a 'Slave Bank' so my needs are different and I need their tremendous survival abilities more than anything else.

They don't have to be all things to all people as a Slave Bank supporting something quick and sharp.

Think of a big Motorhome with a trailer behind it loaded with a Mercedes-Benz Roadster Convertible.

Hand in hand.

There is a fellow in another Forum that wants to do a hybrid system using AHI and Lithium as a booster when necessary.

It's called 'Proposed Battery Bank.'

Lot's of people including Sandia National Labs and The Natural Energy Laboratory of Hawaii Authority are looking at AHI as we speaks.

My main man is snooping around with some of the Hawaiian AHI Dealers right now getting a little of the 'dirty low-down.'

I want to know what wears them out the most.

Could they make some serious years if they were pampered a little but can they still survive if they are temporarily abandoned.


Bill Blake