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Please critique my cabin/pumping design

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  • #16
    Why not install a variable speed drive on the well pump and do away with the startup surge? Gould's and Franklin Electric offer VF drive pumps and they cut back significantly on startup surge as well as a lot of wear and tear on the system. The Franklin unit can be retrofit to any pump with an external capacitor. The extra cost is partially offset by not needing a big pressure tank.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by peakbagger View Post
      Why not install a variable speed drive on the well pump and do away with the startup surge?
      Well, mostly because I'm 20 miles up a dirt mountain road, and the only well service company around is run by a lieing cheat that I'd rather shoot than do business with. It cost me 5000$ the last time I had my pump pulled. That ain't gonna happen again! I'd rather buy gas the rest of my life at whatever the cost rather than kiss his butt ever again.

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      • #18
        Mining through old posts, I found this thread started by bbuddy back in 2013.

        Well yesterday we finally got around to hooking up our 1 HP well pump directly to the Magnum 4024 PAE inverter and threw the breaker and pumped water! The inverter didn't even hesitate to start the 1HP well pump. For those who come after, I post the following specs:

        Well: 240' deep, water level at 79'.
        Pump: Gould 230V 1 HP 3 wire
        Inverter: Magnum 4024 PAE (wired for 240v output)
        Solar: 2200 W

        I was worried about the STARTING of the well pump, not the running, because it's start-up locked rotor amp specs are for 41.8 amps for the first 300 milliseconds. The inverter specs are max 40 amps. I also worried about the 400 amp battery bank being capable of supplying that needed (230v x 41.8amp) 9600 watt surge, but didn't need to expand the deep cycle bank otherwise.

        The solution was to buy two 800 amp vehicle batteries, (MUCH cheaper!) hook them up for 24 volts, and add a "make before break" Blue Sea switch between the deep cycle batteries and the vehicle batteries.

        We pump into a 3,000 gallon tank, so we will be doing the following each time we fill the cistern:

        1. Turn OFF the house breaker - we need every amp the inverter can supply at start-up.
        2. Turn the "make before break" switch to the vehicle batteries.
        3. Turn ON the well pump breaker and start pumping.
        4. Turn the "make before break" switch back to deep cycle batteries, the house breaker back on, and continue to pump water while the house use is on (internet, 110v fridge and chest freezer, lights)
        .

        Looking at the stats of his system, it looks like what I'm planning is about half again larger in most aspects. He was powering a 1hp pump, whereas mine is 1.5hp. He powered it with 2200 watts, whereas I'm buying 3600 watts. His battery bank was 24V, whereas mine will be 48V. The only thing not half again as big would be the inverter, which will probably be 10% bigger. His reasoning seems to make sense to me. Have automotive batteries designed to deliver very large amperage for a short period of time to supply the starting amps for the pump. I wanted to ask is bbuddy is around to answer questions, or has anyone else tried this? How do you go about managing the charging of two asymetrical battery banks?

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        • #19
          It's sort of foolish to mess with mixing auto batteries with deep cycle batteries and the switching, Eventually, something will be left in the wrong position.

          With choosing a 48V system, your amps are half, reducing losses, and the batteries with proper cables should supply the starting surge just fine,
          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MichaelK! View Post
            Well, mostly because I'm 20 miles up a dirt mountain road, and the only well service company around is run by a lieing cheat that I'd rather shoot than do business with. It cost me 5000$ the last time I had my pump pulled. That ain't gonna happen again! I'd rather buy gas the rest of my life at whatever the cost rather than kiss his butt ever again.
            That's why long ago I installed my own deep hole submersible well pump by myself. It wasn't rocket science to figure out how to do it myself and cut out having to depend a well contractor. If you have a external capacitor box, you can switch it over to variable speed drive without pulling the pump.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
              It's sort of foolish to mess with mixing auto batteries with deep cycle batteries and the switching, Eventually, something will be left in the wrong position.
              With my own system (and soon to be system), I've used a matched set of deep cycle batteries only. I am fully aware of Murphy's Law, and try to apply it my own situation at all time. That being said though, it has been my personal observation that what is happening in the real world does not mirror the mantras that people claim on paper. The reason I was asking if bbudy was still around, was that I wanted to ask what system characteristics/symptons led him to chose the truck starting batteries. Knowing why somebody choses a course of action can be the key to understanding why that action was or was not appropriate. The problem is that a lot of what you see on the internet is actually religious belief, whether you're talking about desulfination, gluten, or GMO corn.

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              • #22
                Use a cistern instead of a battery bank that needs replaced.

                Replace your pump with one that can be run solar direct. That way instead of a battery bank you have is slow fill a large cistern that serves as your battery bank. It's what we do to water our orchard with an off-grid setup. My well is not as deep as yours. The setup pumps about 2 gallons a minute under full sun and has easily put out over 700 gallons on a summer day. Cloudy days it does produce less put you also use less then.

                Work out a seven day schedule for watering so you know what your daily maximum need is going to be and design a system that will produce at least that.

                WWW

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                • #23
                  An update on how things are going. I've purchased a good Fluke meter with inrush current capability and I've determined that my starting amps is 35 at 240VAC. Running amps is 9.9-10.0 at exactly 240VAC Not as bad as I expected.

                  I am now proceeding with the construction of the new solar utility room that covers the well-head and will incorporate all the solar utilities. Here's a pic of what's going on right now. It's an asymetrical SaltBox design that allows me to incorporate a standard 80" door on one side, but matches the existing cabin roof edge on the other side. The well has in the past been exposed to the weather, so the pipes always had to be drained in winter to protect against freeze damage. By encapsalating the well head, everything gets protected from freezing, and I can have now year-round water.

                  well house construction.jpgWhat you can see on the right hand side of the room is where the well-head is. The blue-grey box in the background is the Franklin controller. The white PVC piping are the distribution lines for my orchard and gardens.

                  I've finalized my component ordering. I've ordered Renogy's 3600 watt cabin kit, a Schneider 6848 inverter, a midnight solar XM power center, and eight L-16RE-B batteries. I'll be placing the panels on pole mounts at ground level. I'm going to start welding up the panel frames today. My brother-in-law is a retired electrician, so I'm inviting him and my sister for a California vacation later this year to help with the wiring.

                  The arrays will be positioned about 10 to 50 feet to the left of the edge of this picture. The DC will enter the building from the side facing the photographer, with the controller, inverter, and batteries along that same wall.

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                  • #24
                    Also look into getting the Schneider Combox to program the inverter with,
                    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                      Also look into getting the Schneider Combox to program the inverter with,
                      I have already purchased it. I just didn't bother mentioning it.

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