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Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

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  • Iron Bran
    replied
    More nickel iron photos

    Enjoy...



















    Leave a comment:


  • Iron Bran
    replied
    Edison restoration photos

    UPDATE: Working on bringing some very old Edison cells back to life. One cell is holding a charge, and I just opened up three of the perforated metal cases.

    https://picasaweb.google.com/1103216...ideTheNiFeCell









    Originally posted by Iron Bran View Post
    Hi everyone,

    I am interested in learning if you have any experience with non-traditional battery systems?

    Is anyone using ni-cad or nickel iron? I am looking into Nickel Iron (ni-fe), anyone currently using these?

    Thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • john p
    replied
    For anyone that is interested this is a reprint of a post from last year. about how to set up a small but useful solar setup using lithium ion phosphate batteries..

    IF anyone is interested this is how I have set up 3 x100ahr LiFePo4 batteries for charging by solar and for use with MSW inverter..
    Im not claiming this is the correct way or even the best way to do it,, But dont tell me it wont work as all 3 systems been in use over 3 years now almost 4 years with NO PROBLEMS
    Charger a 30a PWM 12v charger set to output 14.8v with no equalization..
    Battery cell over charging 1x 3.9V 1watt zenner diode and 1x10ohm resistor across each cell
    One low voltage sensor set to disconnect the inverter and anything else connected to the battery pack at 10v
    Facts as found out the expensive way by me are if you discharge a cell below about 2.2 v it will be destroyed even if done just one time only.
    If you over charge above about 4.4v they have a very short life.
    If you look at charts from the manufacturesr you find there is little power above 3.8v and it stays fairly constant until about 2.5v then hits a brick wall.
    So use between those 2 voltages and all is well with the world.
    I have never found a MSW inverter that has problems with operating between 15.5v and 10.5 v and that is the usual specs given by most MSW invereter manufacturers..
    Last edited by Mike90250; 06-11-2011, 11:59 AM. Reason: colored reprint section

    Leave a comment:


  • john p
    replied
    Isotour to be fair Sunking has given only facts in each and every post on the subject of Nickel iron batteries.
    But sometimes just facts are not enough to tell you what is the best item to use for your situation

    Its a fact a tomato is a fruit but its wisdom that says its not good to put it in the fruit salad.

    In small below 1000 wpanels and below a 1000 w inverter Lithium Ion Phospate batteries are not over the top expensive and as I have proved now on systems that I assembled almost 4 yrs ago can be charged easily with a std adjustable charge voltage PWM controller.

    In Australia the cost of lead acid batteries of good quality that can be deep cycled are about 40 to 70% higher than in USA. this can totally alter the cost benefits over other batteries.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by isoutar View Post
    The other battery I do love is the one mentioned in the quoted comments beislow. Lithium Iron Phosphate or the A123Systems battery. It has a remarkable lifespan but does have its issues if the controller fails. The lithium gives a much better power density

    For the high power density applications the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (patented by A123Systems) is superb with a long life matching the nickel iron cells endurance combined with high power density. It needs very careful charge control and cooling.
    Ian that has been my point the whole time. There are better less expensive options than NiFe, not too mention LFP voltage curves work very well with standard 12, 24, 36, and 48 volt equipment.

    Granted the charge controller requires some special care, but they are not as sensitive as made out to be especially using the lower charge rates of solar panels. In fact the if using just a C/20 to C/5 charge rate the algorithm is extremely simple just a plain ole constant current until 4.2 vpc is reached them terminate. Much simpler than FLA chemistry.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike90250
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    Mike where are you coming up with those numbers? Current price for FLA is around $0.14/wh, and NiFe around $4 to $6/wh.

    Personally if i had the money to burn, I would looking at LFP from A123 Systems for around $1/wh and they run circles around LiFe
    a) don't need as many watts to avoid 50% discharge

    b) if the charger burps or farts, the cells are toast, balancers cost as much as the batteries, from what I can tell.

    c) NiFe, can use same charger, just a tweak to the setpoints.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike90250
    replied
    Mod note.

    I'm following this fairly closely, and am enjoying the debate and exchange of ideas/thoughts. I am due for new batteries this summer, and am considering all options that don't require me to mortgage my soul. Even looked at used Prius packs

    Looking at 900Ah lead acid, or 600Ah Nife, but wondering if the NiFe cells are shipped dry, and if so, how rust is prevented and how to get 60 gallons distilled water to mix electrolyte for filling.

    Between the top end HUP and Hawker PB, and the NiFe, the prices are not as different as Trojan Pb & NiFe

    Leave a comment:


  • isoutar
    replied
    Lithium Iron Phosphate ... another great long life battery like NiFe.

    I have indeed encounted trouble with SunKing and friends on other sites. They are not willing to honour the fact that we all have our reasons for selecting the technology that we like. There is no need for a uniform opinion on the subject. Most of us here have vested interests somewhere in the field of RE.

    Some people are driven solely by price and others have technical reasons for making choices that are not based only on price. I am one of the latter. There is no reason to insist on a fixed "right or wrong" answer. Everyone can be riight! We just have differing reasons for our selections.

    I have abandoned having an interest in Nickel Iron cell sales. I prefer to make my money on system design services. If you have ever contacted me concerning Nickel Iron you will find that I simply let everyone order directly from Changhong in China. I decided not to sell them myself because there was a need for the technology to be as cheap as possible. My website will reflect this upon the next edit. However I am making money on the design of such systems for scientific and humanitarian applications that require a long lifespan.

    One such application I am currently working on is a remote solar powered astronomical observatory power where batteries need to be delivered by helicopter to a mountaintop. They are very fussy about the lifespan of the battery since each delivery costs at least 10 times as much as the batteries are worth. This is a very typical application where the battery cost is simply not selection criteria. The best economic choice in that case is either Nickel Iron or flooded Nickel Cadmium. Cadmium is the technically best choice but everyone is moving away from Cadmium, especially in Europe due to toxicity.

    The other battery I do love is the one mentioned in the quoted comments beislow. Lithium Iron Phosphate or the A123Systems battery. It has a remarkable lifespan but does have its issues if the controller fails. However our group of enthusiasts here in Victoria who build solar electric boats are experimenting with both Nickel Iron and Lithium Iron Phosphate. The lithium gives a much better power density and is good for speedboats. The nickel iron is fine for cruising in a displacement hull. The same displacement hull boat has been fitted with lead acid or nickel iron and the power density is so similar that there is no difference in the perfromance of that boat. The speed boat however must have the lithium.

    For the high power density applications the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (patented by A123Systems) is superb with a long life matching the nickel iron cells endurance combined with high power density. It needs very careful charge control and cooling.

    The Vancouver Electric Vehicle Association website is worth studying to learn more about battery technology. I have never been to their place in Vancouver but they do maintain a museum of old electric cars and have a wealth of information about batteries.

    Here is the Vancouver Electric Vehicle Assocation website ... a great battery resource ...

    http://www.veva.bc.ca/home/index.php

    Ian Soutar
    Vancovuer Island
    Canada.

    Originally posted by john p View Post
    Here we have to conflicting opinions/reasons for using different batteries
    Sunking does not like nickel iron mosly because ineffecient and expensive
    Isoutar likes them for longevity and a possible vested interest
    I have assembled small solar systems using Lithium Ion Phosphate because zero maintinance easy to charge with a PWM charge controller that has adjustable charge voltages, but high price. Why? for house security lighting where peace of mind not cost is the overriding factor.

    There is no one size fits all, and sometimes purchase price is NOT the deciding factor,

    Its been pointed out in other threads that lead acid batteries are fully recyclable. true to a point.. but not true if you have no place to send them and or no means to economically get them to a recycle place. so the acid gets just poured out on the ground or in a waterway the case discarded and the lead gets save ??? to be played with by children who beat it with a stone into different shapes.. free lead poisioning for all.
    2/3 rds of the world live in poverty and dont have access to things (like safe recycling)some of the people on here take for granted. I be willing to bet most of the posters on these sites have not left the country they were born in and seen the real problems in so many other countries.

    Leave a comment:


  • john p
    replied
    Here we have to conflicting opinions/reasons for using different batteries
    Sunking does not like nickel iron mosly because ineffecient and expensive
    Isoutar likes them for longevity and a possible vested interest
    I have assembled small solar systems using Lithium Ion Phosphate because zero maintinance easy to charge with a PWM charge controller that has adjustable charge voltages, but high price. Why? for house security lighting where peace of mind not cost is the overriding factor.

    There is no one size fits all, and sometimes purchase price is NOT the deciding factor,

    Its been pointed out in other threads that lead acid batteries are fully recyclable. true to a point.. but not true if you have no place to send them and or no means to economically get them to a recycle place. so the acid gets just poured out on the ground or in a waterway the case discarded and the lead gets save ??? to be played with by children who beat it with a stone into different shapes.. free lead poisioning for all.
    2/3 rds of the world live in poverty and dont have access to things (like safe recycling)some of the people on here take for granted. I be willing to bet most of the posters on these sites have not left the country they were born in and seen the real problems in so many other countries.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by isoutar View Post
    in this forum notice a strong biased point of view suggesting that they are terrible. There is no need in this life to be Right or Wrong ... there are applications for both types of batteries.
    Ian it is not only this forum you have trouble with. From searching it is any forum you participate in you get the same results, your numbers just do not add up. However i do understand your bias as you have a vested interest in NiFe batteries since you either have or still selling them.

    Leave a comment:


  • isoutar
    replied
    Sometimes we are not looking for the cheapest price. Sometimes quality is needed.

    I am amazed that I have to say it again. In my own system I never considered lead acid because I did not want to use them. I am not the kind of person to ever buy the cheapest of anything ... I always pay more to avoid devices that fail and need to be purchased again and again. This is done for environmental reasons to avoid "consumerism" and not because of economics. So if the selection criteria is not price then price comparisons are not relevant. Certain specifications for the battery needed to be met to deal with the requests of NGO groups doing work in Africa.

    In my case and others who are actively purchasing NiFe cells we are not even looking for the lowest price. That is not relevant to our selection of NiFe. We are all using it to achieve a long term solution that works without replacing batteries at regular intervals. We are also looking for a battery that (should our panels or controller fail) ... that will not be killed by a total discharge.

    It was a delight near Christmas time this year to just abuse the poor batteries as hard as a could with the result that their performance improved. That is what all NiFe battery users are aiming for. You will find that price comparisons to lead acid are not relevant to us because lead acid batteries do not match the characteristics we want. It is like trying to get someone who prefers an Audi to buy a Hyundai because it is cheaper.

    We are looking for a quality battery that we are happy to be able to purchase at any price. Now that the Chinese are selling them at such a good price we are excited to put them into our homes and projects.

    I do not even own a car so there are no lead acid batteries that I ever use. A battery expert friend runs his car on Nickel metal hydride batteries in order to avoid lead. This works very well and the battery can withstand total discharges by leaving his lights on all night. The next morning with an hour of charging he can start his car and the battery perfomance is still good. Not everyone shops by price alone.

    Ian Soutar
    Vancouver Island BC
    Canada.


    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    You just admitted it my friend, you do not have to see it, you know it already and admitted it..

    Using your own words NiFe cost $2/wh. A high quality Surrette 10 year lead acid cost $.014/wh. Simple math means LiFe cost are $2/$.14 = roughly 14 times higher.

    Leave a comment:


  • isoutar
    replied
    Let us know how your NiFe experiments go.

    Look forward to seeing your results. My own house is going to be online with efficiencies measured by the summer time. So that others can collect efficiency data too.

    Ian Soutar
    Vancouver Island.


    Originally posted by SteveC View Post
    Well, I have on order a set of NiFe batteries [bank of 800 a/h]. So, no experience, yet, but looking forward to it and never having lead-acid again. Though I've had great luck with them, more than 20 yr. on my present set.

    But, stay tuned. I shall be glad to relate both good and bad I find with the NiFes once I get them and am using them.

    Leave a comment:


  • isoutar
    replied
    Pricing of Lead acid cells vs NiFe Cells

    Sunking

    My cells cost $3000 or so with shipping and they are 22 cells which are 200 amp hours. Nominal voltage is about 26.4 volts. That makes for a power storage system of 26.4 times 200 = 5.3 kilowatt hours. I paid $3000 for it so that makes the cost about 3000 / 5.3 = $522 per kilowatt hour. That price works for me and for anyone else who desires the properties of nickel iron cells.

    I suspect there is a math error ... because my NiFE price is only $522 dollars per kilowatt hour. One of us probably made a pricing mistake. Perhaps you can rework your price because lead acid batteries should be cheaper.

    Ian


    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    Lead is a commodity worth$1.35/lb right now, no one with any common sense will throw lead away, especially poor people.

    With that said my issues are primarily cost and integration with equipment. It is very hard to justify to a client given two options. I can build you a 1 Kwh per day system for either $3000 using a 10 year FLA battery in my area, or $7000 to $10,000 using NiFe. That is what it really comes down to not too mention all the technical problems that come with NiFe

    So if you cal that bashing, OK fine, I call it economics.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by isoutar View Post
    Lead acid was a battery type I was determined to avoid for environmental reasons. I would simply not have bothered to even build a solar system by using lead considering the pollution that they have already created.
    Lead is a commodity worth$1.35/lb right now, no one with any common sense will throw lead away, especially poor people.

    With that said my issues are primarily cost and integration with equipment. It is very hard to justify to a client given two options. I can build you a 1 Kwh per day system for either $3000 using a 10 year FLA battery in my area, or $7000 to $10,000 using NiFe. That is what it really comes down to not too mention all the technical problems that come with NiFe

    So if you cal that bashing, OK fine, I call it economics.

    Leave a comment:


  • isoutar
    replied
    Good for you ... you will love the NiFe you purchased.

    If you look back over the previous posts you will see that I have been using NiFe for my house and now for African schools and hospital power projects. You are right ... most people who are speaking against them have never used them. I put quite a few posts to dispell the NiFe bashing comments in the eariler comments on this thread. Go back and read the old posts again to catch my comments.

    I accept that different people have different wishes and different views of the world. Why not just accept that people are different ... there is no reason to prove that one is right or wrong. Personally I did not find NiFe to be that expensive and the price had no effect on my choiice of NiFe. Lead acid was a battery type I was determined to avoid for environmental reasons. I would simply not have bothered to even build a solar system by using lead considering the pollution that they have already created.

    The USA Dept of Energy estimates that at least 15% of lead batteries are lost in landfill sites, rivers, lakes and oceans. A University of Michigan study shows that the problem is much worse.

    Lead acid is not going to be my approach since RE is all about protecting the environment. If you want to carry on a friendly and supportive chat about your project you can email me directly at soutar@uvic.ca. I am very interested to learn how your system works and compare notes to my house experience.

    I also had to ignore the lead acid propaganda from this site as well as several others ... and just move forward to purchase my NiFe cells.

    Ian
    Vancouver Island.

    Originally posted by SteveC View Post
    Well, I have on order a set of NiFe batteries [bank of 800 a/h]. So, no experience, yet, but looking forward to it and never having lead-acid again. Though I've had great luck with them, more than 20 yr. on my present set.

    But, stay tuned. I shall be glad to relate both good and bad I find with the NiFes once I get them and am using them.

    Leave a comment:

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