Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • russ
    replied
    Tough being retired!

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
    I'm using a lot of water in the
    batteries, that is a expense (distilled @ $1 gallon x 20 gallons) and a waste of half a day to get it
    into the cells
    You just thought you retired!

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike90250
    replied
    Originally posted by Neven View Post
    ....
    BTW, Mike, maybe you already wrote about this somewhere, but how is your NiFe bank doing so far?
    I've got the carbonate test kit, but have not had time to test it. I'm using a lot of water in the
    batteries, that is a expense (distilled @ $1 gallon x 20 gallons) and a waste of half a day to get it
    into the cells

    But the lights have stayed on, the generator is run on cloudy days, and things are manageable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Neven
    replied
    I know about the BMS, but must admit I haven't researched it properly. The NiFe guy also brought this up as a con of LiFeYPO4.

    BTW, Mike, maybe you already wrote about this somewhere, but how is your NiFe bank doing so far?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike90250
    replied
    Originally posted by Neven View Post
    ..... But I'm just not so sure about NiFe. Right now I tend towards LiFeYPO4. I know this thread is about NiFe vs Lead Acid, but it seems to me LiFe(Y)PO4 is becoming a real contender.
    Have you researched the BMS (Battery Management System) needed for LiFe(Y)PO4, it's added cost, reliability, and integration with the charger ? Just making sure you compare apples to apples.

    Although I own NiFe bank, I went through the LiFexx research a couple years ago. The BMS was a pain as most off grid installs will be much larger than what is used for vehicle installs, and beyond the capacity of the smaller BMS kits. Getting the BMS to interact properly with the charger is another issue.

    Mike

    Leave a comment:


  • Neven
    replied
    Thanks for the heads-up, Robert.

    I haven't really progressed in my choice making since the last time I posted a reply, except that I've visited the gentleman who sells (or wants to sell) Russian NiFe batteries. A very friendly person who's in it for the transition towards sustainable mobility and society, definitely not a devil.

    We had a long talk and I explained that what I liked about the NiFe is its environmental aspects and longevity. What I liked less is that if you want to get the max out of them with regards to environmental aspects and longevity, it's best not to drain more than 30% of the capacity (similar to lead-acid), which makes them expensive. If you do take out more you have to add water and sooner or later replace the electrolyte. The latter is also a downside for me, having skipped most of my chemistry classes in high school. He told me he wasn't a fan of lithium hydroxide because of its toxicity, low availability and high costs. He preferred 100% potassium hydroxide for the electrolyte, even if that meant lower electrolyte cycle. I know hydroxide stuff is used to make soap and other cosmetic products, so maybe I can overcome this antipathy.

    Basically, right now, I'm doubting whether I should opt for good, old NiFe or ultramodern LiFeYPO4, and I told him as much. I sent him this cost comparison (prices in euros; €1 = $1.3) :

    15 x 160 Ah LiFePO4 @ 3.2 V = 7680 Wh
    DOD 60% = 4608 Wh
    Costs = € 2836 (without VAT)
    €/Wh = 0.62

    According to manufacturers you get 3000 cycles with 80%, and 5000 cycles with 70%. I would go for 60% to be on the safe side and compensate for PRomises.

    Compared to the Russian batteries:

    40 x 300 Ah NiFe @ 1.2 V = 14400 Wh
    DOD 30% = 4320 Wh
    Costs = € 5467 (without VAT)
    €/Wh = 1.27

    The LiFeYPO4 is much cheaper, takes up less space, and if it does more than 5000 cycles, you get 15 years of operation (and more if you don't mind the capacity loss). I haven't been able to find much conclusive information on environmental impacts, except that it is much better than Lithium-Ion batteries because it doesn't contain cobalt. And it doesn't explode when overcharged.

    After I sent him this comparison, he replied that he could give me a discount which would bring down the €/Wh cost to approximately 0.93. In that case he wouldn't make a profit, on condition that we would stay in close contact to exchange data and experiences and my set-up is an example for other people who would be interested in doing the same. He basically wants to gather people who want to buy NiFe batteries and then order big batches in Russia to reduce costs.

    I think the idea is kind of cool, as I'm also in it for the transition towards sustainable mobility and society etc. But I'm just not so sure about NiFe. Right now I tend towards LiFeYPO4. I know this thread is about NiFe vs Lead Acid, but it seems to me LiFe(Y)PO4 is becoming a real contender.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert1234
    replied
    I'm not seeing the poor charge efficiency at the bottom range of the cells. Not sure from redox chemistry why that would occur. Maybe it's some weird phenomena in Chahong's design but what it might be I cannot imagine right now? Not sure it matters but I'll repeat that my cells are 50-60 year old Edison C6 cells currently giving me 300 amp-hr of their original rated 337.5 amp-hr capacity. Perhaps they are different in their use characteristics.

    For the record...

    1) Poor charging efficiency was ONLY at the top end of the cell. Charging efficiency appeared to be a very smooth curve with near 100% coulombic efficiency at the bottom end of the cell (i.e. little charging then discharging) and then dropping to about 90% as I pushed past 150 amp-hr charging. Cummulative efficiency dropped to about 75% as I pushed past the 240 amp-hr charge mark and gets stupid low from there.

    2) I've got 20 of these C6 cells strung together running the power in my greenhouse hooked to 600 watts of solar panels. I'm running my cells for the most part in the bottom of their range. The system on the greenhouse is "tuned" so that the batteries are cycling maybe from 30% - 50% during normal days. (My greenhouse doesn't draw that much electrical energy.) More than 3 or 4 stormy days in a row and my system will "run dry" and go off-line at some points during the nights although I can't remember exactly when my last power outage was (and we've had some pretty gloomy weather lately). Weeks on end of good sun and I figure I'm probably pushing the bank into the 80% charge levels.

    3) I've only added water once this year so far to the batteries - and that was more because I was afraid I was getting forgetful, not because they were in danger of needing fluid yet. Going to be interesting to see what the summer brings as I get better light.

    Leave a comment:


  • russ
    replied
    Originally posted by Sundetective View Post
    Let's hear about anything that I ever said that is untrue.

    You may be acting like a Little man with a big problem.

    Why step on your best thread - ever?

    Bill Blake
    Bill - Any best thread ever, which this is not and you have little to do with, outside of blather and attacks or patting your self on the back.

    You have the head problem.

    Have a nice day.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sundetective
    replied
    Originally posted by russ View Post
    Old Bill - Easy to preach to the unknowing isn't it - not even any knowledge necessary possibly?
    Let's hear about anything that I ever said that is untrue.

    You may be acting like a Little man with a big problem.

    Why step on your best thread - ever?

    I did a lot to straighten this subject out.

    I know it. They know it.

    Bill Blake

    Leave a comment:


  • russ
    replied
    Old Bill - Easy to preach to the unknowing isn't it - not even any knowledge necessary possibly?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sundetective
    replied
    Neven, You can use any percentage of the Ni-Fe cells that you want - however it
    does sound like you can get into some real stupid percentages as far as water consumption
    and charging efficiencies go.

    POOR charging efficiency Top AND Bottom according to Changhong.

    That fact seems to have gotten Lost by people sinking a lot of money into Ni-Fe -
    It no Lie.

    According to Changhong if you run their Ni-Fe Cells down too much 'certain' Lead Acid Cells put
    a severe stomping on them as far as Longevity goes.

    They do shine (Life Cycles) if they are treated about the same as typical Lead Acid cells.
    Just spare them the myths and wives tales and read the Manufacturers Charts.

    The big question is since they do not sulfate can we avoid that difficult ... LAST 20% between
    80% to 100% ?

    Yes the holding Capacity will drop but will the Net Capacity still be enough.

    How often would they need a good BOOST CHARGE ?

    About the same as what they recommend as a 'Finish Charge' regimen for Lead Acid batteries -
    old Bill will guess.

    Yet another 'First' here at SPT.

    I'm not trying to make "a case" since there is no money in this game for me. Zero.
    I am involved with research in a business that has plenty in it - but not here.

    Someday I would like to see people have 'The Submarine Type' Ni-Fe Battery again which was the
    real crowning achievement of Mr. Edison and his gang.
    I wrote about it in the Fieldlines OtherPower Forum last year.

    The Easy to Drain - easy to Refill - easy to refurbish (over and over) 'Sub Type Ni-Fe'
    came AFTER they wrapped up many years messing around
    with the conventional Ni-Fe battery.

    Tens of Thousands of Man Hours and Hundreds of Millions (in todays money)
    went into the Ni-Fe ... WAR BATTERY.
    WWI that is.

    This thread now has over 30,000 views.

    By 50,000 views we will have it all figured out .. in spite of things.


    Bill Blake

    Leave a comment:


  • Neven
    replied
    For a well funded Survivalist type that can Properly store a lot of chemicals it can be A WAY to go.
    I'm not well-funded, not a survivalist and I can't properly store a lot of chemicals. So that's a tad problematic.

    If I can only use 30% of the battery's capacity, I'd have to buy at least 15 kWh worth of NiFe batteries to get the 5 kWh I'd probably need for my setup. 15 x $600 = $9000 (EUR 7500). I can't afford that, I think. It'd be an option if I'd have the guarantee that the batteries will function for over 30 years...

    Complicated stuff, difficult to find good info on environmental aspects of batteries of different plumage. I think I might wait, and buy and build an array in 2014.

    I'll report on what I find out about the Russian NiFe batteries.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sundetective
    replied
    Neven ... Your going after the 'Smart Slice' of dat Ni-Fe pie.

    That 'sweet' 50% to 80% slot is exactly where the Ni-Fe Cells seem to compete well.
    Of coarse anyone that would read what the Chinese were actually saying has known
    that for a good while now.

    Also the sly devils didn't STOP that Charging / Water Usage Chart at 1.6 Volts Per Cell
    by accident. Nice to hear that you picked up on dat one as well.


    For a well funded Survivalist type that can Properly store a lot of chemicals it can be A WAY to go.
    IF the day ever came that you just couldn't buy new Cells - for whatever reason -
    than all new rules run the battery show.


    I had the Russian Ni-Fe Cells back in the 70's but never paid enough attention to them
    to be able to say much today. They were about the same size as my 'main man',

    The Russian's sent me some info in 2012. They said that they would like to push products
    in America but were never able to make it happen - the devils

    I looked real 'good and plenty' but did not see where they have anything like what
    Changhong and The Electric Indian has available for the greedy American


    Old Bill Blake

    Mod note - Old Bill - Leave off the name calling and blather - make your case with facts only.
    Last edited by russ; 02-15-2013, 11:44 PM. Reason: removed blather and attack

    Leave a comment:


  • Neven
    replied
    Thanks for the welcome

    The reason I ask about the Russians is that I live real close (in Austria) to a guy who sells Russian 300 Ah NiFe batteries for around $600/kWh. He maintains longevity is 20-100 years, depending on how you threat them, that the batteries don't mind being overcharged or completely depleted (after reading several forums I don't think that holds up), and that if you change the electrolyte every 10-15 years and do what the manufacturer advises, the batteries might well outlive you.

    Like I said, I like the idea of only having to buy batteries once, especially batteries that contain a minimum of crap (unlike lead acid batteries), but "MORE cells and MORE $$" (because it's best to charge and discharge them in the 50-80% range, if I remember correctly) and changing that electrolyte make me a bit hesitant. And when I look at state-of-the-art LiFeYPo4 batteries that are so small... Who knows what else is out there! I'm just beginning to scratch the surface here.

    But anyway, I'm going over to the guy selling the NiFe batteries next week. See what he says. Should be interesting.

    If anyone has any info on Russian NiFe batteries I'm all ears though. Buffalo Bill Blake, the charlatan hunter, said he didn't say anything about the Russians because he didn't know what they did wrt NiFe. That's just about everything I read about the Russians here and elsewhere. But I've been reading for just 20 hrs so far.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert1234
    replied
    Hello Nevin, I'd like to welcome you as well and thank you for the kind words.

    Unfortunately with regards to your question, I have no personal experience / data with any NiFe batteries other than the Edison cells that I can share - although as always, I do have my opinions .

    I believe a lot of the general knowledge / techniques obtained via work on the Edison cells should translate over well to most all NiFe technologies. I have my "baby bank" of cells running day in and day out now at well over 90%+ coulombic efficiency consistently and have decreased my water consumption dramatically (watering looks to be needed maybe every 2 months or so - and that's with the small headspace that the C6 Edisons have in them). Basically, I think the cause of most all the issues brought out in this discussion is that we've all been trying to store too much energy in the cells because we're told they can take it. Back off the juice and the power inefficiencies, hydrolysis, misting issues, iron poisoning, etc all get minimized. (Unfortunately that means MORE cells and MORE $$.)

    With all that said, I personally can't justify investing my resources (read that as $$) into the NiFe cells being marketed today because of the high prices. I only paid about $34 each for my cells. While that's still a 2x premium over a LA forklife battery based on $/kWh the way I suggest using them, it's a far cry from the 10x premium that the market is charging for new cells. I continue to look for used cells to add to my NiFe supply, but unless I find a lot more of them, I will be utilizing LA forklift packs for my main power storage needs at the cabin.

    Hope this info helps.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X