battery for fuel station

[burjoes]

Hello - I own a biodiesel business and we are setting up a customer with a new station. It will be a 500 gallon biodiesel station with a 12v pump. They will be using the pump for 5-15 min at a time to fill up personal vehicles, maybe every other day. I'm trying to size a battery and a panel for this application. Seems very light weight, but don't want to screw it up.

The customer lives outside of Dallas, and it will be on a farm with whatever angle and position we want - probably on top of a barn or something simple.

The pump is 25A - here are the specs: http://www.fillrite.com/techinfo/Ins...0C_BD4200D.pdf

I am somewhat familiar with solar in that I have a system at my house (3.4KWH) with battery bank (8 x 6V Rolls). However, this would be the first time I would be building something myself, and I might consider having a local solar company do it. But if it's as simple as it seems, due to what seems like a very low usage pattern, we might do it ourselves.

15 minutes of fueling would take 6.25Ah, right? So if I had a battery likehttp://www.batterymart.com/p-12v-18ah-sealed-lead-acid-battery-1.html?utm_term=SLA-12V18&utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_medium=CPC&gclid=C Lu_oK6R1bUCFUeCQgodrjAAdw, that would drain the battery down by about 30% each time she fills up a vehicle, then need to replenish that power. If I got a panel like this - http://www.instapark.com/solar-power...ontroller.html, it is 30w. At 12v, that would be 2.5Amps/hr recharge rate at full power, so 2.5 hours to replenish the charge. I would never expect full power, so maybe 4 hours recharge time to be safe.

If my ramblings are close, then for every 15 minutes of pump use, it would take 4 hours of sunlight to replenish. With an 18Ah battery, it could be used for a total of 45 minutes with no sun before running out of power completely.

Please provide any feedback!

Thank you,

Jason Burroughs

[Mike90250]

Oftentimes, the small PV panels just do not perform as well as the label may suggest. add in the balance of system losses and I think you would be safe running 200-300 watts of panels, and be able to pump on less the full sunny days.

[burjoes]

Oftentimes, the small PV panels just do not perform as well as the label may suggest. add in the balance of system losses and I think you would be safe running 200-300 watts of panels, and be able to pump on less the full sunny days.

Hi Mike - are you saying I need 7-10 times more panel wattage than I was thinking? That's a big difference, and would seem much more complicated to manage multiple panels wired together, as well as a lot more expensive.

Can you better explain why it would take so much power to charge up the battery?

Also, what difference does would this make in the ability to pump on less than full sunny days? I thought the power for the pump would come from the battery, and the panel would just be there to recharge the battery in between sessions.

[SunEagle]

Hi Mike - are you saying I need 7-10 times more panel wattage than I was thinking? That's a big difference, and would seem much more complicated to manage multiple panels wired together, as well as a lot more expensive.

Can you better explain why it would take so much power to charge up the battery?

Also, what difference does would this make in the ability to pump on less than full sunny days? I thought the power for the pump would come from the battery, and the panel would just be there to recharge the battery in between sessions.

First off that panel only puts out a maximum of 1.68 amps not the 2.5 you calculated. So on a good sunny day you would need about 4 hours of perfect sunshine to recharge the battery once. If you used your pump more than once a day that 30 watt panel could never keep up the charge on the battery.

Having more panels would help recharge the battery faster as well as give you more output on a less than good sunny day where you get maybe only 2 hours of sunshine. You also may want to go to a large battery because you have to plan for the days that you have no sunshine which would leave your pump battery empty with no way to charge it. The farther you drain you battery the faster you will shorten it's life. Most batteries are designed for about 20 to 30% drain before recharging. Any more and you will damage it.

[Mike90250]

All panels are tested in a lab for output. In real life, when aimed perfectly, they produce about 20% less then the nameplate power.

In real life, a panel may only be aimed properly for about 20 minutes a day.

Real life batteries have charging losses, 50 watts used, needs 70 watts returned.

Charge controllers have losses. Wires have losses. Loads grow.

Instead of using a small 18ah battery, a larger "marine" battery of about 100 ah, and about 200W of solar panels (a single large panel can produce 275 watts) will give you a MUCH more reliable system.
But why not use a hand crank drum pump ? Many vendors sell them.
Rotary_Cast_Iron_Drum_Hand_Crank_Rotary_Oil_Fuel_Transfer_Barrel_Manual_Pump.jpg

[bonaire]

Can large 500-gal tanks use a gravity feed pumping system where the output is at the bottom and the weight of the fuel pushes it out enough that you only need minor pumping? How about an above-ground tank with entirely gravity fed output? Just pump fuel "into" the tank and gravity-feed it out.

500_GRAVFED.gif

[SunEagle]

Can large 500-gal tanks use a gravity feed pumping system where the output is at the bottom and the weight of the fuel pushes it out enough that you only need minor pumping? How about an above-ground tank with entirely gravity fed output? Just pump fuel "into" the tank and gravity-feed it out.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2675[/ATTACH]

Looks very energy efficient too.

[burjoes]

Thanks for the replies. I have a 3.4KWH system at home that I get about 15-16KW per day out of (we get an average of 5 hours of sun a day in this part of Texas).

Anyway, I'm hear to learn, so how about this:

http://www.apexbattery.com/12v-100ah-concorde-lifeline-gpl-3100t-marine-starting-battery.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=46215369306&utm_content=pla&gclid=COTXtayk17UCFW3ZQgodGEEAjQ

and this:

http://www.amazon.com/Eco-Kit-200W-c...0w+solar+panel

So that's a 100Ah battery and a 200W panel with charge controller.

A hand crank and gravity feed won't work because they are not designed for cars and trucks due to the slow speed preventing auto-shutoff from working. Plus hand crank would take forever for the amount of gallons they will use. This is also a woman in her 60s. She is a hands on gal, but that much cranking is just too much. She would be filling up a 20 gal tank maybe every 3 days, which is maybe 200 gallons a month.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

deleted

[SunEagle]

Thanks for the replies. I have a 3.4KWH system at home that I get about 15-16KW per day out of (we get an average of 5 hours of sun a day in this part of Texas).

Anyway, I'm hear to learn, so how about this:

http://www.apexbattery.com/12v-100ah-concorde-lifeline-gpl-3100t-marine-starting-battery.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=46215369306&utm_content=pla&gclid=COTXtayk17UCFW3ZQgodGEEAjQ

and this:

http://www.amazon.com/Eco-Kit-200W-c...0w+solar+panel

So that's a 100Ah battery and a 200W panel with charge controller.

A hand crank and gravity feed won't work because they are not designed for cars and trucks due to the slow speed preventing auto-shutoff from working. Plus hand crank would take forever for the amount of gallons they will use. This is also a woman in her 60s. She is a hands on gal, but that much cranking is just too much. She would be filling up a 20 gal tank maybe every 3 days, which is maybe 200 gallons a month.

Actually I am curious of the PV panel in the amazon link. They seem to be pretty cheap at $1.72 a watt including the charge controller. That is pretty inexpensive for a low voltage panel which leaves me suspect.

Does anyone have any experience with the RENOGY brand?

[FloridaSun]

Actually I am curious of the PV panel in the amazon link. They seem to be pretty cheap at $1.72 a watt including the charge controller. That is pretty inexpensive for a low voltage panel which leaves me suspect.

Does anyone have any experience with the RENOGY brand?

not with RENOGY but there is a much cheaper low voltage panel available. 2@ 145watt panels, 290 watts for $230. That's $.79 a watt, with shipping less than $1.15 a watt delivered to central Florida, <$330. Only had them for six months so a lil early to comment on them but so far, so good. Thinking about buying another pair for my 24volt set up.

I have one of those controllers, couldn't resist at $25. Russ commented they were only good for a boat anchor. NOT true! If you take the metal plate off the back (which has no function as a heat sink) I'm sure it would FLOAT. hahaha, it does work tho, not sure for how long. I tried it out and quickly replaced with MPPT.

[SunEagle]

not with RENOGY but there is a much cheaper low voltage panel available. 2@ 145watt panels, 290 watts for $230. That's $.79 a watt, with shipping less than $1.15 a watt delivered to central Florida, <$330. Only had them for six months so a lil early to comment on them but so far, so good. Thinking about buying another pair for my 24volt set up.

I have one of those controllers, couldn't resist at $25. Russ commented they were only good for a boat anchor. NOT true! If you take the metal plate off the back (which has no function as a heat sink) I'm sure it would FLOAT. hahaha, it does work tho, not sure for how long. I tried it out and quickly replaced with MPPT.

Thanks for the feedback. I am looking for one or two more panels to complete my Portable PV system. I was also looking at a 100 watt panel for $170 with free shipping made by Windy Nation. Made in China but sold in CA. The RENOGY seems to be in the same class as the Windy Nation.

I currently have 4 x 80 watt panels made by Sopray. They are rated 17.6 volts with 4.55 peak amps. I plan on using an inexpensive 30 amp CC made by Sunforce (another boat anchor) and 4 x 50ah 12volt Universal batteries. Since I can go up to the 30 amps on the CC I was looking for another 80 watt Sopray for 400 watts & 23 amps total but have not found one. That's when I came across the Windy Nation and the RENOGY panels. I figure I can add a 100 watt panel to the other 4 which would bring the total to 420 watts or about 24 peak amps.

Of course I am going about building this system the wrong way by wiring the PV panels in parallel to charge a 12volt batteries system also wired in parallel. I understand the batteries will have a short life and my wire sizes need to be big enough for the high amperage at 12 volts but I planned on this being only a portable system when I am out on my property camping.

Just curious about these low cost panels to see what experience others have had with them. Thanks again for the tip on the low cost panels.

[FloridaSun]

Thanks for the feedback. I am looking for one or two more panels to complete my Portable PV system. I was also looking at a 100 watt panel for $170 with free shipping made by Windy Nation. Made in China but sold in CA. The RENOGY seems to be in the same class as the Windy Nation.

I currently have 4 x 80 watt panels made by Sopray. They are rated 17.6 volts with 4.55 peak amps. I plan on using an inexpensive 30 amp CC made by Sunforce (another boat anchor) and 4 x 50ah 12volt Universal batteries. Since I can go up to the 30 amps on the CC I was looking for another 80 watt Sopray for 400 watts & 23 amps total but have not found one. That's when I came across the Windy Nation and the RENOGY panels. I figure I can add a 100 watt panel to the other 4 which would bring the total to 420 watts or about 24 peak amps.

Of course I am going about building this system the wrong way by wiring the PV panels in parallel to charge a 12volt batteries system also wired in parallel. I understand the batteries will have a short life and my wire sizes need to be big enough for the high amperage at 12 volts but I planned on this being only a portable system when I am out on my property camping.

Just curious about these low cost panels to see what experience others have had with them. Thanks again for the tip on the low cost panels.

400watts at 12 volts = 23 amps?? Sounds like very soon you will need another charge controller.
Have you purchased your sunforce cc yet? Instead of buying 60-70 $$ CCs why not just get one 45Amp Morningstar PWM for around $150. Much more versatile, battery temp sensor, MUCH better quality with their 100% humidity rating, better suited for camping. (What good is a 90% humidity tolerance in Florida where we have 100% (or more ) many days?)

[SunEagle]

400watts at 12 volts = 23 amps?? Sounds like very soon you will need another charge controller.
Have you purchased your sunforce cc yet? Instead of buying 60-70 $$ CCs why not just get one 45Amp Morningstar PWM for around $150. Much more versatile, battery temp sensor, MUCH better quality with their 100% humidity rating, better suited for camping. (What good is a 90% humidity tolerance in Florida where we have 100% (or more ) many days?)

The 23 amps is the peak output of the 5 panels in total. The manufacturer calculates the panel wattage by multiplying the peak output voltage (17.6) by the peak output amps (4.55). That is how you get the 80 watts. With 5 - 80 watt panels that gives you 400 peak watts and 5 x 4.55amp = 22.75 amps. All this means is that these wattage rating of these panels is inflated. You still have to fuse the panels based on their peak amp rating. They will each have 10 amp class CC fuses at my combiner box. With a peak amp output for the 5 panels being around 80% of the 30 amp output for the CC I should be ok as long as I don't enlarge the system.

As for the CC. Unfortunately I jumped at a great deal to purchase the Sunforce CC with the digital readout for $76. Not the best purchase but one that I can live with. I am already searching for a MPPT charger like the Morningstar TS-MPPT-45. I rather upgrade to the MPPT as my system grows to a more permanent (but small) off-grid system. I will also upgrade to a 48volt system using 6v batts.

[FloridaSun]

The 23 amps is the peak output of the 5 panels in total. The manufacturer calculates the panel wattage by multiplying the peak output voltage (17.6) by the peak output amps (4.55). That is how you get the 80 watts. With 5 - 80 watt panels that gives you 400 peak watts and 5 x 4.55amp = 22.75 amps. All this means is that these wattage rating of these panels is inflated. You still have to fuse the panels based on their peak amp rating. They will each have 10 amp class CC fuses at my combiner box. With a peak amp output for the 5 panels being around 80% of the 30 amp output for the CC I should be ok as long as I don't enlarge the system.

As for the CC. Unfortunately I jumped at a great deal to purchase the Sunforce CC with the digital readout for $76. Not the best purchase but one that I can live with. I am already searching for a MPPT charger like the Morningstar TS-MPPT-45. I rather upgrade to the MPPT as my system grows to a more permanent (but small) off-grid system. I will also upgrade to a 48volt system using 6v batts.

Cheapest TS-MPPT-45 I've seen so far is $391.42 delivered. Seems the price has been creeping down in the months I've been looking at them. I lucked out months ago finding cheap 15amp MPPTs for $43@ on fleabay that actually work, 12 or 24 volt, 100% humidity rated with waterproof aluminum case, seem to be somewhat shock proof also after... well, dropped one 3 ft off a bench onto concrete floor without ill effect. Much better observed amp output (10.2Ap) than the PWM's 7.2Ap with 145W panel at 12V or 290w at 24V.
Still, gotta go Morningstar.... some day. Great product with all the bells and whistles for a proper system.