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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
    Boost and Absorb .....
    Please edit your post and replace BOOST with the industry proper term (whatever you think it is), or I can simple delete it. we won't confuse people with random terms with there are industry standards.

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

      Please edit your post and replace BOOST with the industry proper term (whatever you think it is), or I can simple delete it. we won't confuse people with random terms with there are industry standards.
      I took out the word BOOST but left the reference to "b" because I was trying explain to the OP, who had used that term, that they are all the same, I don't know why some manufacturers use the term boost when in reality it is Constant Voltage that describes what the charger is actually doing. I think Absorb is an appropriate term for Pb charging because it reminds me of a slow process and that stage is what makes Pb so inefficient when it comes to charging compared to Lithium. Is it the same with your Iron batteries as far as long Absorb times?
      Last edited by Ampster; 09-18-2020, 09:31 PM.
      9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

      Comment


      • #18
        OK, I'm going to lay out the standardized nomenclature that the big boys use for defining stages of charging, [and I think I know this stuff pretty well, but I'm open to suggestions of something being even more correct]

        BULK = where as much power as the charger is allowed to deliver, to the batteries, to raise them to a specific voltage
        This power can be limited by insufficient panels, too small of a controller, or a large array and a current limit programmed into the controller.
        Used with all battery chemistries. (with lead acid, this terminates around 80% full) (With Li, this completes with the battery being Very Full -depending on cycle life chosen)

        ABSORB = the 2nd phase of charging many batteries, where the voltage is held steady and the battery absorbs more energy. With lead acid, it often takes several hours, and as
        the cells fill up, the charging amps diminish (Absorb terminates either by Timer or when amps reach a % of total capacity : a 100ah cell terminates when amps reach a % set by the Mfg to be about 95% full ( could be 2%, could be 5%) (Rarely used with Li cells because of risk of overcharge)

        FLOAT = the 3rd phase of daily charging, where voltage is allowed to lower a bit from Absorb, and the cells are gently topped off - usually a multi hour process

        [ digression - often the solar charging day has ended before the cells are completely full, and this contributes to short battery lifetime from sulfation ]

        EQUALIZE = a corrective phase for flooded lead acid, where after Absorb completes, voltage is raised and cells are charged hard, gassing liberally, in an attempt to correct the inevitable imbalances that build up after a month of charge and discharge. This is hard on the cells, but less damaging than suflation. Some AGM mfgs suggest a lightweight version of EQ spelled out in their specs - but only in dire cases, as any gas vented, is dissociated electrolyte, lost to the battery forever. With lead acid, a hydrometer is used to measure the electrolyte until all cells are in balance.

        BOOST = ( I would desire to not even list this term, but it is occasionally used correctly ) A gentle corrective charge on a severely depleted Li battery where normal charging or BMS has shut the system off. This is a lightweight charge to try to get some energy into the cells and hopefully the normal charge cycle can resume in a day. Batteries where this has happened to / needed to be performed should be expected to fail in a spectacular fashion at some point afterwards.
        Also inferior chargers have, for years, incorrectly used Boost as a term to make some part of their lead acid battery charge cycle seem more impressive. A bad habit among RV/Caravan groups.
        .

        Because this Forum has visitors from all over the globe, these standards need to be adhered to and not manipulated to mean something else.

        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Ampster View Post
          I took out the word BOOST but left the reference to "b" because I was trying explain to the OP, who had used that term, that they are all the same, I don't know why some manufacturers use the term boost when in reality it is Constant Voltage that describes what the charger is actually doing. I think Absorb is an appropriate term for Pb charging because it reminds me of a slow process and that stage is what makes Pb so inefficient when it comes to charging compared to Lithium. Is it the same with your Iron batteries as far as long Absorb times?
          And this is what makes you SO DANGEROUS around neophytes. You talk a good talk. And it's wrong & dangerous the way you think you are explaining it.
          Absorb is a CV stage with lead acid. The label was invented for lead acid batteries

          Constant Current CC is the BULK stage, where as much current as feasible is delivered to raise the batteries to the Absorb voltage. It is NOT the same as CV and it sure isn't the same as Boost since Li batteries started using that term.

          The screen shots from that "charger display" are extremely troubling, as the charger is doing things it was not programmed to do. Or it was programmed incorrectly

          And I've learned to never try to interpret someones voltages as an indicator of their actual battery system.. I could care less what flavor of battery they have, as long as they understand what mucking about in the charger or BMS programming is going to do. That "charger display" is a great example of something very wrong, and the person is totally clueless about it. I won't even try to discuss the situation - it is so far off, it's like they are gaming us.

          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
            OK, I'm going to lay out the standardized nomenclature that the big boys use for defining stages of charging, [and I think I know this stuff pretty well, but I'm open to suggestions of something being even more correct]

            BULK = where as much power as the charger is allowed to deliver, to the batteries, to raise them to a specific voltage
            This power can be limited by insufficient panels, too small of a controller, or a large array and a current limit programmed into the controller.
            Used with all battery chemistries. (with lead acid, this terminates around 80% full) (With Li, this completes with the battery being Very Full -depending on cycle life chosen)

            ABSORB = the 2nd phase of charging many batteries, where the voltage is held steady and the battery absorbs more energy. With lead acid, it often takes several hours, and as
            the cells fill up, the charging amps diminish (Absorb terminates either by Timer or when amps reach a % of total capacity : a 100ah cell terminates when amps reach a % set by the Mfg to be about 95% full ( could be 2%, could be 5%) (Rarely used with Li cells because of risk of overcharge)

            FLOAT = the 3rd phase of daily charging, where voltage is allowed to lower a bit from Absorb, and the cells are gently topped off - usually a multi hour process

            [ digression - often the solar charging day has ended before the cells are completely full, and this contributes to short battery lifetime from sulfation ]

            EQUALIZE = a corrective phase for flooded lead acid, where after Absorb completes, voltage is raised and cells are charged hard, gassing liberally, in an attempt to correct the inevitable imbalances that build up after a month of charge and discharge. This is hard on the cells, but less damaging than suflation. Some AGM mfgs suggest a lightweight version of EQ spelled out in their specs - but only in dire cases, as any gas vented, is dissociated electrolyte, lost to the battery forever. With lead acid, a hydrometer is used to measure the electrolyte until all cells are in balance.

            BOOST = ( I would desire to not even list this term, but it is occasionally used correctly ) A gentle corrective charge on a severely depleted Li battery where normal charging or BMS has shut the system off. This is a lightweight charge to try to get some energy into the cells and hopefully the normal charge cycle can resume in a day. Batteries where this has happened to / needed to be performed should be expected to fail in a spectacular fashion at some point afterwards.
            Also inferior chargers have, for years, incorrectly used Boost as a term to make some part of their lead acid battery charge cycle seem more impressive. A bad habit among RV/Caravan groups.
            .

            Because this Forum has visitors from all over the globe, these standards need to be adhered to and not manipulated to mean something else.
            Just a thought : Make it a stickie ??

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
              And this is what makes you SO DANGEROUS around neophytes. You talk a good talk. And it's wrong & dangerous the way you think you are explaining it.

              What you write above, IMO only, is a good example of why SK, I, and maybe some others think Ampster's shenanigans make him a loose cannon that needs either some lashing down or jettisoning.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                Just a thought : Make it a stickie ??
                After any needed editing, sure.
                Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                Comment


                • #23
                  There are already very good stickies that do a very good job explaining battery charging for lead acid.

                  As i have said in the past, I would be happy to correct anything that I said was dangerous. For the benefit of other readers what needs to be corrected?

                  Was it the reference to boost? I agree it is an ambigous term and should not be used. The first reference to boost was from the OPs attachment and it was set to the same value as Float and Absorb. Those are both settings which maintain the voltage at a constant value. Is that not correct? I do not believe boost should be set above those voltages if it cannot be disabled. That was what I was trying to convey. It would be dangerous to set it above Absorb voltage.
                  9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
                    There are already very good stickies that do a very good job explaining battery charging for lead acid.
                    then you should read them and STOP giving out mis-information

                    As i have said in the past, I would be happy to correct anything that I said was dangerous. For the benefit of other readers what needs to be corrected?
                    usage of the boost term incorrectly. I already explained that. fell on deaf ears or blind eyes. Once you win an acolyte, it's hard to undo the wrong lessons


                    Was it the reference to boost? I agree it is an ambigous term and should not be used.
                    It is NOT ambiguous and I am attempting to restore proper usage of it. you don't seem to get it.


                    The first reference to boost was from the OPs attachment and it was set to the same value as Float and Absorb. Those are both settings which maintain the voltage at a constant value. Is that not correct? I do not believe boost should be set above those voltages if it cannot be disabled. That was what I was trying to convey. It would be dangerous to set it above Absorb voltage.
                    then point out the incorrect term and set things straight, don't compound an error by reinforcing it.

                    I don't know why some manufacturers use the term boost when in reality it is Constant Voltage
                    And this is your main misunderstanding. when lead acid batteries are charged, the first stage of charging is NOT constant voltage, that would destroy the battery in a few minutes from a steam explosion. Fortunately, few chargers and cables are capable of achieving this and it doesn't happen often, except you are now, in ignorance or error, directing neophytes in this direction. This is why you are dangerous, you don't know what you don't know.

                    It's like a chemist making a typo of H3O instead of H2O , just a very subtle difference, but a trained person would instantly see there is a big potential for disaster. You do this with electricity and batteries. Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes,Yes, Yes, Yes, BOOM !

                    You appear to treat batteries and electricity like tinkertoys, putting things together at random. But some of those "hubs" are C4 and will blow your nose (or some innocent persons) off.

                    So, now, it falls on me, a moderator, to undo the wrong teaching you gave to the OP. Again. I'm just tired of cleaning up your messes. Stay with what you know you know, don't wander off into stuff you only think you know


                    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

                      ..............
                      And this is your main misunderstanding. when lead acid batteries are charged, the first stage of charging is NOT constant voltage,........
                      I do not recall saying that the first stage of charging was constant voltage.

                      I have no misunderstanding of what happens when I connect a charger to a battery. If I set a charger or power supply to 14.4 volts and connect it to a battery whose Open Circuit voltage is 12.5 volts as soon as I connect them the voltage at the connection will drop to the voltage of the battery and the current will increase to the limit set in the charger or the capacity of the power supply. Is that not what the definition of constant current is? Again for simplicity I am talking about a fixed charger or power supply.

                      I also understand the difference between a fixed charger or power supply and a charge controller. In the case of the charge controller the current may be further limited by by the output of the solar panels. That has been explained by you and Sunking a number of times. Sunking refers to this as Constant Power in this sticky:
                      https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...t-does-it-mean

                      I completely understand that without any limit on current that your example of a steam explosion would take place.

                      What do you think my misconception is about the first stage of charging?This is simple physics. I do not disagree with anything you are saying. I am asking you to tell me what post I should correct? I think that is important to future readers.
                      I may not have explained it to @GeorgeF in as detailed a manner and If that is what the problem is I apologize.
                      9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ampster View Post
                        I may not have explained it to @GeorgeF in as detailed a manner and If that is what the problem is I apologize.
                        After watching your antics around here for 3+ years, seems to me when you apologize for some rude behavior it's for the same ignorant and inconsiderate type of stuff you got to called out for doing before your last apology - that behavior being the type Mike is calling you out for now, which at its root is for mouthing off about stuff you're ignorant about and so spreading bad information, and then leaving your spoor for others to clean up. Meanwhile, most of your response to most callouts is argument - like now.

                        Not that it probably matters not a whit to you, but pardon me if I think you apologies seem to have less than genuine contriteness.

                        If I recall correctly, those antics are of the same type crap that got you a 2 week vacation shortly after you showed up here.

                        Such behavior is not only inconsiderate, it can easily be dangerous.

                        Stop arguing and stop making excuses for your rude, ignorant behavior.

                        Paraphrasing what Mike writes, stick to what you know and can back up in ways that make sense in more than an anecdotal ways, or use circular arguments that go nowhere. The cleanup around here will be easier.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                          ........stick to what you know and can back up in ways that make sense in more than an anecdotal ways, .......
                          I just gave a brief explanation of what I know about battery charging with respect to volts and Amps. It is not as long or as very thorough explanation in the sticky but it is accurate to to best of my knowledge. I even referenced the sticky so others could understand the details that I did not cover.

                          I am still waiting for a response about what statement was dangerous and I would be happy to delete it. There seems to be a misunderstanding that I said CV was the first stage of charging. I could not find anywhere in this thread where I said CV was the first stage of charging.

                          9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ampster View Post
                            Part of the answer is that the word beginning with a "b" is the same thing as Absorb and both are the same as CV. My preference is for the term Constant Voltage because it actually describes what the charger is doing.
                            My charge controller reports existing voltage. That is separate than the CV voltage setting that it reports, and different than Constant Current that it reports.
                            I appears from the pictures you posted that it is a 13S Lithium pack of NMC like chemistry.
                            My answer is more of a question to try to clarify the terms and distinguish between a setting and a measured voltage. The term "reports" is ambigous.
                            This is where you said it.

                            You do not grasp fundamental electricity and just keep weaseling around with more and more blather to mid your mess. Unless someone knows their stuff, it just sounds OK because you say it with such authority. And you are going to get someone injured and then say it was their fault anyway.


                            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ampster View Post
                              ......
                              I have no misunderstanding of what happens when I connect a charger to a battery. If I set a charger or power supply to 14.4 volts and connect it to a battery whose Open Circuit voltage is 12.5 volts as soon as I connect them the voltage at the connection will drop to the voltage of the battery and the current will increase to the limit set in the charger or the capacity of the power supply. Is that not what the definition of constant current is? .......
                              No, you defined Limited Current or Current Limit. Another thing you did not know .

                              Constant Current is where the amps remain at a set value, regardless of voltage or resistance.

                              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ampster View Post
                                I just gave a brief explanation of what I know about battery charging with respect to volts and Amps. It is not as long or as very thorough explanation in the sticky but it is accurate to to best of my knowledge. I even referenced the sticky so others could understand the details that I did not cover.

                                I am still waiting for a response about what statement was dangerous and I would be happy to delete it. There seems to be a misunderstanding that I said CV was the first stage of charging. I could not find anywhere in this thread where I said CV was the first stage of charging.
                                All this latest mess you've stirred up is but another example of the troubles and possible danger you can cause by your mouthing off about stuff you're less than qualified to give advice or safe and helpful comment about.

                                Question: For this latest example, if, by your own statement, a stickie gives a thorough explanation, why didn't you simply refer to that stickie and leave it at that ?

                                But you didn't. You mouth off and when you get called out for rude, inaccurate and possibly dangerous postings. Seems that here you've taken that usual tack and simply argue about stuff, wording, definitions etc., all of which winds up being as significant and productive as separating fly crap from pepper, and the chance to have a meaningful and accurate exchange of safe and useful information goes in the toilet.

                                You mouth off about stuff you know nothing about in ways that would be laughable to those who do know about what you blather about if it weren't so potentially dangerous and also wasteful, not to mention rude by sending neophytes down blind allies and non productive dead ends. A nice side bennie: In doing so you wind up making a bigger ass of yourself.

                                To write, as you do, that something of a technical nature is accurate to the best of your knowledge is like damning with faint praise, and would also be a joke if it wasn't so dangerous an attitude.
                                If people can possibly take what you write - thinking you know what you're saying, then use it, and then kill themselves, a "...to the best of my knowledge..." excuse doesn't cut it.

                                Anyone with knowledge in technical areas can easily see you have no business mouthing off about such things but it takes a bit to see through your game.
                                You don't know as much as you'd like folks to think and you bluff/con your way through the rest of it.

                                I see it all the time from you which is one reason I'm on your ass a lot. I call B.S. on something you write as B.S. and back up why I think so, and get back nothing more than smoke/mirrors and an offer of an apology to the membership (but not a retraction or admission of error) if I eventually run you to ground, or nothing if Mike gets sick of the bickering and clips all the argumentative posts from both of us. It's a B.S. show that I wouldn't waste time on if I didn't care about safety or about getting alternate energy right.

                                You're claimed background is 50 years of being a financial slug. I do believe that. Stick with it. You'll cause fewer problems that way.

                                I've got close to 40 years of engineering. about 34 of those years as a professional engineering slug and closer to 50 years around alternate energy, which, BTW, is why I got into engineering in the first place - I got sick of being B.S.'d by solar con men and decided to get my own answers while being better able to call B.S. on the cons.

                                I'll make you a deal: I won't talk about what financial slugs do if you don't talk about what engineering slugs do.

                                This forum will be better and will keep it's reputation as one of the more technically accurate places for solar and other alternate energy information if you limit your posting to what you are sure you know. If you don't, expect to get challenged for B.S.

                                Or, better yet, hang out at those myriad other forums where you claim membership. Maybe they like your brand of hearsay information more than some here like it.

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