RV / Camper Design Example

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  • Sunking
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2010
    • 23301

    RV / Camper Design Example

    OK we get a lot of RV and Camper folks here on the forum asking a variety of questions. Many ask about hooking up the bits and pieces of the system, some even have circuit diagrams wanting feedback. No way can I address every question on a thread about RV’s and Campers; however there are a few common oversights.

    My biggest concern is safety first. The most common errors are SAFETY related to a properly designed electrical distribution system and implementation. Although the logic in the design is not difficult, but unless you have some training and experience you stand little chance of getting it right. For example coordinating Fuse/Wire sizes, grounding, and what goes where.

    I say a picture is worth a thousand words. What you see below is a Cookie Cutter design template of a 500 watt, 12-Volt, 200 to 400 AH Battery, 1000 Watt Inverter, and 12 Volt House Distribution. I put in all the Bells and Whistles (Alternator charge connection, and House Distribution) which are optional to demonstrate how and where to connect them. So allow me to logically go through the design points.

    Let’s start with the batteries as they are the highest order power SOURCE, and the world revolves around the batteries. So very first thing you do is select where the batteries are to be installed. Place them where you can also fit the Charge Controller, Inverter, and House Fuse Block close by so no 1-way wire length exceeds 3 to 5 feet. Second thing is to locate them near or on chassis frame because that is where we need to connect the most important wire of all, GROUND. More on that later and is the LAST connection you make.

    Note on the drawing you will see a Dual Fuse Block. It is physically bolted onto the battery term post with ¼ x 20 hardware. Remember I said the batteries are the power SOURCE, not the panels or alternator if used. The battery can supply extremely high fault currents. Enough to vaporize the large copper wires you are using. Fuses are for one thing and one thing only. To protect the wire connected to it. Fuse size and wire size are directly related. The larger the fuse, the larger the wire must be. So how large of fuse and wire do you need? In this example we need two circuits. One to the Charge Controller and One to feed Equipment Loads.

    Charge Controller is a No-Brainer and first up. It is a 40 amp controller so we need 40 Amp Fuse as shown in the drawing. 40 Amp fuse with open air wiring requires a minimum 10 AWG wire. Kept to 5-feet One-Way or less distance, voltage drop is of no concern, otherwise use 8 AWG. Make the connections between battery and controller as shown, and the controller should come to life. If not figure it out.
    OK the 100 Amp Fuse is to Feed Loads. A 100 Amp Fuse requires a minimum 6 AW in open air, but is pushing it both thermally and with excessive voltage drop issues with length. Note I show a 6 AWG to the Battery Isolator (Alternator). I can do this because it is a Current SUPPLY, not an Equipment Load. The Other end of the wire is to the Alternator Battery Isolator, and it should also be fused. Current from the alternator flows to either the Battery to charge it, to the equipment if battery is charged, or both. Normally load current does not flow from the Battery to Alternator unless there is a Fault.

    OK the Equipment Loads are fed with a 100 Amp Fuse. Use 4 AWG or larger to each Load as shown. Do not exceed 2 Loads when using a Single Fuse as a Feeder because you cannot get more than two on the Fuse Block Term Post and comply with codes. In the drawing I show two. One for the Inverter, and one for the House Distribution Fuse Box. With a 100 Amp feeder requires the House Fuse Box to be rated for at least 100 Amps. 12 Volt 1000 wat Inverters require a 100 Amp Circuit.

    Take note and be aware sharing the 100 Amp Fuse on the Battery Term Post between two loads makes it a FEEDER as opposed to a Branch Circuit. It is possible that the two combined loads could exceed 100 amps and operate the Fuse. This is done intentionally as to limit maximum load current on the battery to 100 amps. That poor little 200 to 400 AH battery cannot really do more than 100 amps without excessive voltage sag and Term Post overheating. So if it happens is not a safety issue, but a design goal. Replace the fuse and reduce loads.

    OK now that the Controller, Alternator, and Loads have been connected time to deal with the panels. As shown I have two-250 watt panels connected in series for 500 watts. 250 wat panels are higher voltage grid tied panels aka GT Panels. Reason is simple they are less expensive and require less material which saves more money and maximize efficiency. They are also lower current which makes them easier and safer to deal with. Connected in series the maximum fault current is roughly 10 to 12 amps. What that means and the code allows is we do not need any fuses provided the wire size we select can safely handle the 12 amp fault current. Minimum wire size requirement is 14 AWG or larger.

    OK we almost have everything hooked up, but ready to test. Turn the Inverter on and make sure it works OK by plugging a high wattage appliance in and turning it on. Check and see that the battery is charging from the panels. Start the motor and make sure the Alternator is charging your house batteries if you installed it. Test your DC Distribution if installed by testing every circuit. Everything should work normally and as expected.

    OK time to make the most important connections. Those funny looking Green Wires at the battery negative post and Inverter Ground Terminal if it has one. These wires MUST BE as large as or larger than the largest wire used in the system. Largest wire I used in this example is 4 AWG. Before you connect these wires, you must have the system fully tested and operational as instructed above. The sole purpose of the Ground Wires is to make all your fuses and breakers work as intended and designed. It returns Fault current back to the Source, the battery negative terminal.

    The Green Chassis Ground Wires are to be kept as short as possible without sharp bends. One end connects directly to the Battery Term Post with ¼ x 20 locking hardware. Route the other end to the frame of the vehicle, Prepare the frame/chassis connection surface area by removing all paint, grease, dirt, down to bright shiny metal. Lightly coat connection surfaces with No-Ox Grease to prevent corrosion. Use Dragon Tooth Lock Washers if using Self Tapping screws, or ¼ x 20 locking hardware preferred. NOTE: If your Inverter or Charge Controller requires a Ground Connection duplicate above procedure and use the exact same connection point on frame/chassis used for the battery so you have a Single Point Ground Connection. This will prevent normal Return Load Current from flowing on ground wires and the frame of your vehicle. It will also keep things electrically quiet and avoid interference issues with sensitive electronics.

    Hope that helps. Keep it Safe and Sane.







    Dual Battery Fuse Block shown below Single Fuse Block. Blue Sea Part # 2151 shown with MRB Fuses installed.




    DC Distribution Block. Deep Sea Part # 5026
    Last edited by Sunking; 09-14-2016, 07:35 PM.
    MSEE, PE
  • joerossjr
    Member
    • May 2016
    • 82

    #2
    Awesome. You never fail to impress me with your knowledge!! I don't care what ANYONE says about you!! :P

    Will there be a 24V version? I know some vehicles do have 12V AND 24V installed (12 for start/vehicle lights, and 24V for equipment).

    Comment

    • SunEagle
      Super Moderator
      • Oct 2012
      • 15125

      #3
      I am sure a 24v system can be designed for specialty vehicles although as far as I know about 99% of the RV industry is in the 12volt realm.

      Comment

      • Sunking
        Solar Fanatic
        • Feb 2010
        • 23301

        #4
        Originally posted by joerossjr
        Will there be a 24V version?
        Not likely because Battery Voltage does not drive the design elements. It is the current and to some degree Power that drives the show. Example you could use the exact same example if the system was 24, or 48 volts @ 40 Amps, not much changes except the panel wattages and battery voltages. For 24 volts would be 1000 watts, and for 48 volts 2000 watts. Both would be 40 amps and require the exact same wire sizes and hardware.

        The Template really does not change much from one system to another. Just the value of the components charge like wire gauges and fuse sizes. Most mistakes are coordinating fuse/wire size, over current protection scheme (grounding), and matching components to work with each other panel watts/controller/battery/Inverter size ratios. .

        So lets pretend this is a 48 volt battery, 4000 watt panel, and 4000 watt Inverer with 800 AH battery. What changes? Not much we change the wire gauges between the Panels and Controller, and between the Controller and Battery to a larger wire, and replace the 40 amp fuse to 80 amp fuses. Nothing else changes, just some wire sizes and 1 fuse size.

        Now what scares the crap out of me is seeing a 200 watt panel charging a 12 volt 100 AH battery with a 2000 watt Inverter using chicken wire. and improperly or no over current protection.
        Last edited by Sunking; 09-15-2016, 01:50 PM.
        MSEE, PE

        Comment

        • joerossjr
          Member
          • May 2016
          • 82

          #5
          Should I chassis ground everything or run a return line to the ground bus? Is there an advantage to running that return line? Maybe noise or engine/alternator interference? I have an avionics background where almost everything is chassis grounded and only a "hot" line is run.

          Comment

          • Mike90250
            Moderator
            • May 2009
            • 16020

            #6
            Because automobile chassis have so much corrosion and vibration dampening goop, being assured of a good chassis ground is not likely. for your heavy loads, inverter and charger, I would run a minus line (return line).
            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

            Comment

            • Sunking
              Solar Fanatic
              • Feb 2010
              • 23301

              #7
              Originally posted by joerossjr
              Should I chassis ground everything or run a return line to the ground bus? Is there an advantage to running that return line? Maybe noise or engine/alternator interference? I have an avionics background where almost everything is chassis grounded and only a "hot" line is run.
              Battery Return Line for everything. When you use the chassis as a return conductor is the same thing as using ground for return. You are intentionally running noise through your Signal Reference Point causing interference. Automobiles quit using chassis for battery return a long time ago when they switched to Electronic Ignition, high-end stereos, and electronics.


              MSEE, PE

              Comment

              • Tamnakz
                Junior Member
                • Jul 2016
                • 41

                #8
                Originally posted by Sunking

                Battery Return Line for everything. When you use the chassis as a return conductor is the same thing as using ground for return. You are intentionally running noise through your Signal Reference Point causing interference. Automobiles quit using chassis for battery return a long time ago when they switched to Electronic Ignition, high-end stereos, and electronics.

                Didn't most foreign auto manufacturers stay with a chassis ground and use a suppression relay of some sort to clean up the juice to the computers?

                Assuming stock chassis grounds have been cleaned/added to/upgraded and everything else is up to par; is there any reason to use a battery return if you're not concerned with EMF's?

                I plan to wire my inverter with a return, but all my other loads I had planned on using the chassis at termination.

                Comment

                • Sunking
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Feb 2010
                  • 23301

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Tamnakz
                  I plan to wire my inverter with a return, but all my other loads I had planned on using the chassis at termination.
                  Be my guest. But you could be sorry later down the road when things quit working or don't work at all.

                  Perhaps some history and facts might help. It is true automobiles used and to some extent use chassis as a return conductor today for lighting. Decades ago there were not many problems using the chassis as a return conductor except for Radio Operators. Cars had solid welded frames and chassis with great tail to nose low resistance over a huge Plane with a massive amount of surface area. As long as you tapped the Frame, you were good. Radio Operators Police, and others who had sensitive equipment ran into interference issues. Even though resistance was low to DC the large amount of currents required for high power radio caused difference in voltage that are picked up by the Antenna Ground Point.

                  The reason the Frame and Chassis ground were used were not electrical reasons, It is WEIGHT and EXPENSE. Would WEIGHT be a concern in an aircraft? Do old Cessna Aircraft have a solid frame, metal skin, and a solid firewall all bonded together?

                  Then in the mid 80's after the Carter Abortion auto makers switched to electronic ignition systems and Uni-Body Construction. That ended using the chassis as a return conductor. Any thing requiring any significant current of say 10 amps or more will encounter unacceptable voltage loss to the point of not operating. Anything using an antenna would be subjected to a significant amount Common Mode Noise produced by the voltage differences along the surface of the vehicle. Turn on your microwave and TV goes out. Or Turn on Microwave and it groans because the voltage sag so low it cannot operate. That is what you are asking for.

                  So be my guest. Have at it.
                  Last edited by Sunking; 10-11-2016, 04:00 PM.
                  MSEE, PE

                  Comment

                  • Mike90250
                    Moderator
                    • May 2009
                    • 16020

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Tamnakz
                    Didn't most foreign auto manufacturers stay with a chassis ground and use a suppression relay of some sort to clean up the juice to the computers?....
                    Yeah, I'd like a part # for a suppression relay

                    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                    Comment

                    • Tamnakz
                      Junior Member
                      • Jul 2016
                      • 41

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Mike90250

                      Yeah, I'd like a part # for a suppression relay
                      1323592

                      Adds a 'suppression circuit' to the older Volvos I'm familiar with. Cleans up/removes voltage spikes from the computer circuits.

                      Comment

                      • Tamnakz
                        Junior Member
                        • Jul 2016
                        • 41

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Sunking

                        Be my guest. But you could be sorry later down the road when things quit working or don't work at all.

                        Perhaps some history and facts might help. It is true automobiles used and to some extent use chassis as a return conductor today for lighting. Decades ago there were not many problems using the chassis as a return conductor except for Radio Operators. Cars had solid welded frames and chassis with great tail to nose low resistance over a huge Plane with a massive amount of surface area. As long as you tapped the Frame, you were good. Radio Operators Police, and others who had sensitive equipment ran into interference issues. Even though resistance was low to DC the large amount of currents required for high power radio caused difference in voltage that are picked up by the Antenna Ground Point.

                        The reason the Frame and Chassis ground were used were not electrical reasons, It is WEIGHT and EXPENSE. Would WEIGHT be a concern in an aircraft? Do old Cessna Aircraft have a solid frame, metal skin, and a solid firewall all bonded together?

                        Then in the mid 80's after the Carter Abortion auto makers switched to electronic ignition systems and Uni-Body Construction. That ended using the chassis as a return conductor. Any thing requiring any significant current of say 10 amps or more will encounter unacceptable voltage loss to the point of not operating. Anything using an antenna would be subjected to a significant amount Common Mode Noise produced by the voltage differences along the surface of the vehicle. Turn on your microwave and TV goes out. Or Turn on Microwave and it groans because the voltage sag so low it cannot operate. That is what you are asking for.

                        So be my guest. Have at it.
                        Well, I had a question, but you skipped it in your quote.

                        I have an '89 ford with a full frame. My plan is subject to change, that's why I'm asking questions.

                        My question though was, is there any significant concern other than EMF?

                        ... this is assuming I'm not an idiot and ground my batteries right next to my fuel pump or similar...

                        Comment

                        • Sunking
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Feb 2010
                          • 23301

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Tamnakz
                          My question though was, is there any significant concern other than EMF?
                          High resistance connections causing excessive voltage drop, , dissimilar metal contact with galvanic corrosion from forcing current through frame, . There is no EMF issue, rather RFI and Common Mode Noise.
                          Last edited by Sunking; 10-13-2016, 10:43 AM.
                          MSEE, PE

                          Comment

                          • Mike90250
                            Moderator
                            • May 2009
                            • 16020

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Tamnakz
                            1323592 Adds a 'suppression circuit' to the older Volvos I'm familiar with. Cleans up/removes voltage spikes from the computer circuits.
                            Sadly, that is simply a relay. It connects to a noise suppression circuit elsewhere in the car, and thus called a Noise Suppression Relay
                            It, by itself, does not suppress anything. You need the rest of the car's wiring gear to suppress noise.


                            This relay is found under your hood. Also used as a Cooling Fan Relay on some Volvos, and some 700/900 models will have TWO under the hood (one for noise suppression and one for cooling fan).

                            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                            Comment

                            • Tamnakz
                              Junior Member
                              • Jul 2016
                              • 41

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Mike90250

                              Sadly, that is simply a relay. It connects to a noise suppression circuit elsewhere in the car, and thus called a Noise Suppression Relay
                              It, by itself, does not suppress anything. You need the rest of the car's wiring gear to suppress noise.

                              http://www.davebarton.com/volvorelay...#relay1323592:
                              This relay is found under your hood. Also used as a Cooling Fan Relay on some Volvos, and some 700/900 models will have TWO under the hood (one for noise suppression and one for cooling fan).
                              I didn't mean to imply that the relay did the suppressing... I've simply seen them on many vehicles. The relay is always the same thing, but the circuits/methods have differed.

                              I know Dave(or knew, once upon a time, he's a guru in classic Volvo parts), and you're right, it's just a basic relay.

                              You need no other gear though.

                              This relay simply applies battery direct power and ground (in otherwise chassis ground vehicles) to the fuel injection circuit to avoid interference elsewhere from the pulse width fired injectors.
                              Last edited by Tamnakz; 10-15-2016, 01:05 AM.

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