LiFeYPo4 questions

[PNjunction]

Well I am speaking from direct experience with EV's where LFP has already been put to to real life use. Currently One of the least expensive, not the cheapest is Calb CA series an dis very popular in the DIY EV field with a track record. Current pricing is in the neighborhood of $0.40/wh compared to $0.20 for high end FLA. The LFP has roughly 1000 cycles compared to 2000 cycles of FLA. It is just simple economics at this point in time.

That price narrows for those using high-end agm's. But that is covered elsewhere.

No doubt CALB is one of the top, if not THE top major player - just don't forget that the major advancements are primarily for the high current EV market, and those using them as relatively low-current housebanks (like 0.2 to maybe 0.3C max) will not be able to utilize those advancements. Yes, build quality, enhanced to low-temperature operation are desirable.

For instance, the older blue "SE" series should be entirely adequate for house-bank duties, whereas the upgraded gray "CA" or "FI" series would be overkill in most cases. Maybe not for EV, but for a house-bank, yes. I'm not sure the SE line is produced anymore, so one may want to watch out for old-stock dumping, or abused customer-returns and the like.

This also gives thought that even brands like Hi-Power may be just fine with our relatively mundane application for them - again sized appropriately for a typical house-bank, and not some small portable job that gets hammered. I have no experience with Hi-Power.

Lurkers - just having cells or a website promoting them does not automatically mean quality. Don't buy from those who formerly wrapped their cells with duct-tape.

GBS is another popular brand of LFP and one of the more expensive brands. They just came out with another upgrade because the line of yesterday performed poorly.

Huh? My GBS are performing just fine. I don't see anything BUT second-gen or even 3rd-gen available these days. Even then, these are waaaay over-capable for the application we put them to.

But yes, it is true about not just jumping into these things because they are new or because EV users like them. For a housebank user, you've really got to justify the operational characteristics that differ from lead, and see if they have any meaningful relevance to your own style of operation.

[reed cundiff]

Was pointed to the LFP threads on a boating forum. They are four or five years ahead of RV'ers and off-grid solar folks in their sophisticated use of LFP. The primary argument against their usage is economy of scale: of great use to people that cruise (do not put into marinas for the main part), and of little use for those that primarily tie up at marinas or just go out for a few weekends a year in their boats. Solar is probably a problem with sailboats due to shadowing from mast, cordage and sails, and a problem on powerboats with little real estate to emplace them. The boaters do use considerable wind power to charge. We considered wind power but have never been places where it would really be useful - and then probably don't want to spend a lot of time with wind whistling by - and attendant dust etc.

I think we are in the same boat (so to speak) here. For RV'ers such as ourselves that primarily boondock and are worried about weight, LFP makes sense. For those that spend their time at RV parks or weekend a few times a year, they are an unnecessary expense. There is the same economy of scale for fixed sites: the faster charging rate and DOD usage is important for many and not so much for others. Cost compared to one's whole up power system and of the home/RV is not notably significant. You choose where to save and where to spend as you think appropriate. We have blowup sailing kayak instead of motorboat; recumbent trikes instead of motorcycles or ATVs; watch DVDs instead of satellite RV; and use Wi-Fi when available rather than satellite; do not eat out etc etc. The last time I ran into someone that was disdainful of the outrageous costs of LFP and solar, he was on his second pack of cigarettes for the day and about finished with a sixpack of beer ($4500/year and wife did the same, $9000/year Kaching).

Reed and Elaine

[russ]

The last time I ran into someone that was disdainful of the outrageous costs of LFP and solar, he was on his second pack of cigarettes for the day and about finished with a sixpack of beer ($4500/year and wife did the same, $9000/year Kaching).

I always laugh when someone makes that comparison! You are minding someone else's business.

[inetdog]

I always laugh when someone makes that comparison! You are minding someone else's business.

People come here asking about solar panels and batteries and all sorts of related technology. I have not yet seen a member asking for (or getting) help controlling their drinking or smoking, and that is fine by me.

[PNjunction]

KEEP those connections properly torqued!

I forgot to say I'm glad Sunking brought mentioned the appearance of the newer generation of GBS cells.

Years ago the chemical formulation was improved, but it also did something more - the now famous square terminal connectors each with 4 bolts instead of just one. This lessens the chance for a loose terminal going high-resistance. For EV'ers with many many multiples of cells, that can be a pita to check, but should be done nevertheless.

With other quality cells like CALB, they typically only have one bolt per terminal, which of course needs to be properly torqued. To maintain that torque under high-vibration environments like an EV, nord-lock washers are usually favored and may not come with the battery.

To avoid sounding like a salesman trying to pit one approach against another, both approaches are good for ensuring a tight connection.

No matter what the chemistry, be it lead or lifepo4, bad connections and sloppy construction or wiring has to be avoided at all costs. In some cases, the poor performance or dramatic failure events reported by the media are attributable to this, and not the battery itself per se.

[Sunking]

the now famous square terminal connectors each with 4 bolts instead of just one. This lessens the chance for a loose terminal going high-resistance. For EV'ers with many many multiples of cells, that can be a pita to check, but should be done nevertheless.

With other quality cells like CALB, they typically only have one bolt per terminal, which of course needs to be properly torqued. To maintain that torque under high-vibration environments like an EV, nord-lock washers are usually favored and may not come with the battery.

To avoid sounding like a salesman trying to pit one approach against another, both approaches are good for ensuring a tight connection.

Gotta strongly disagree here as a engineer. Two or more points is far superior to any single point like a ring type connector using only one bolt. Mechanically and electrically no contest.

On the mechanical side you can take apart any electrical connection without tools, only using your bare hands by using the leverage of the compression barrel. Even gravity over time can loosen a connection when installed on a vertical plane. Secondly single point has less contact area.

Two point tor more cannot be leveraged off, and provides greater surface area with higher pressures thus making lower resistance connections. This becomes real important on high current connections.

This is a detail that is often the difference between consumer grade electrical products and commercial/industrial grade electrical.

Having said all that I do like very much the new design with four-point intercell and terminal post, integrated safety covers molded to accept BMS wiring and hardware, and all the hardware and packages available. They make great buildin gblocks and you can by them pre-fabricated from stock selections or Turn- Key to your specs. I am looking at either a 48 (16S) or 60 volt (20S) 100 AH block for the LSV. Most likely 48 volt due to budget. Speed cost big bucks.

[inetdog]

Having said all that I do like very much the new design with four-point intercell and terminal post, integrated safety covers molded to accept BMS wiring and hardware, and all the hardware and packages available. They make great buildin gblocks and you can by them pre-fabricated from stock selections or Turn- Key to your specs. I am looking at either a 48 (16S) or 60 volt (20S) 100 AH block for the LSV. Most likely 48 volt due to budget. Speed cost big bucks.

"I wish I had enough money to buy a bank of batteries like that."
"What would you do with them?"
"Oh, I wouldn't actually buy them, I just wish I had that much money."

[Sunking]

"What would you do with them?"

Well if you are asking me, for a Low Speed Vehicle. You know golf cart V3

[inetdog]

Well if you are asking me, for a Low Speed Vehicle. You know golf cart V3

Right, but I have not intention of doing that.
I wonder how many LSV'ers don't even golf?

[Sunking]

I wonder how many LSV'ers don't even golf?

Rednecks like myself also use them for Hunting Buggies.

[inetdog]

Rednecks like myself also use them for Hunting Buggies.

Heard a great one today:
"The best form of gun control is using two hands."

[J.P.M.]

Rednecks like myself also use them for Hunting Buggies.

Shootin' critters and par using the same vehicle - now THAT'S a cost effective use of resources if I ever saw one. Does your club allow you to strap a deer to the hood ? Weapons in the golf bag ? Are tree stand golf shots allowed with a club, or are you limited to a slingshot ? Are you required to yell "FORE" before touching off a round ? Limit hunting parties to less than 4 ? Golfer safety courses required ? Can you still use such a vehicle on a posted course ? How do you muffle the club jostle noise in rough terrain ? Or does that noise sound like clashing antlers in rutting season ? Is a back window required for the gun rack ? Can you bring down a deer with a Titleist ? Is there a taxidermist in the pro shop ? Lots of details to consider. I'm just wonderin', ya know ?

[Sunking]

Well here is the meet on the bone. Your standard Big Three golf cart manufactures carts curb weight is 980 pounds on the light side and up to 1030 pounds so let's just say 1000 pounds. Of that 1000 pounds is 500 pounds of battery, lead acid batteries or 48 @ 170 AH. A LFP 16S 150 AH pack weighs 113 pounds. You loose 400 pounds or 40% of the vehicle weight, and gain performance and usable capacity. The object is to get to at least 35 mph, and dumping 400 pounds goes a long way to assist in that goal. So for me it is a win-win-lose. The lose or what is lost is about $2100 battery, compared to a FLA cost of roughly $750 to $800.

Ask any Knuckle Head, Grease Monkey, or Motor Head fast ain't cheap.

[Sunking]

Shootin' critters and par using the same vehicle - now THAT'S a cost effective use of resources if I ever saw one. Does your club allow you to strap a deer to the hood ? Weapons in the golf bag ? Are tree stand golf shots allowed with a club, or are you limited to a slingshot ? Are you required to yell "FORE" before touching off a round ? Limit hunting parties to less than 4 ? Golfer safety courses required ? Can you still use such a vehicle on a posted course ? How do you muffle the club jostle noise in rough terrain ? Or does that noise sound like clashing antlers in rutting season ? Is a back window required for the gun rack ? Can you bring down a deer with a Titleist ? Is there a taxidermist in the pro shop ? Lots of details to consider. I'm just wonderin', ya know ?

How did you know what my Club's requirements are to join? That can only mean you are a Card Carrying Red Neck.

[J.P.M.]

How did you know what my Club's requirements are to join? That can only mean you are a Card Carrying Red Neck.

I was sort of brought up that way when very young and have a good memory for when things were simple(r) and people straighter. Learned to take responsibilities and job seriously - and myself not too much so. Been in Redneck recovery for a long time, but the roots run deep and relapses as below sneak out every so often. Enough of this - I've got to go sharpen my head.