Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Residential Energy Storage Hub

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    Russ as far as the Hub Box is concerned I am not impressed. Just way too many false claims. I am also no tcrazy about using multiple AGM batteries in parallel, just plain bad idea.

    OK but that is not to say it is all bad. I have been following PbC batteries for about 10 years. Basically a PbC battery is your standard AGM battery. The positive plate is just your everyday lead calcium plate used in every battery. However the negative plate is a hybrid caron-lead plate, that reportable offers low internal resistance and much improved sulphation characteristics. This could be a game changer in th elead acid battery and may very well give lithium a run for the money. Here is a neat graph from Sandia National Labs comparing cycle counts.



    Note here the Green Line is the PbC battery. What is not stated is the PbC batteries used were made by East Penn, Furukawa. Axiom refused to participate, and that raises a RED FLAG. So axiom does not have the market cornered. Even though Axion did not participate, the PbC battery is exciting. Withthat said I need to see a lot more details from 3rd party testing of actual production models.
    Do you think the PbC batteries being used in the RES HUB are the ones or similar to those being tested by Sandia?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
      Do you think the PbC batteries being used in the RES HUB are the ones or similar to those being tested by Sandia?
      No Sir as I stated Axiom refused to have their battery tested by a 3rd party. The two tested were Deka and Furakawa.
      MSEE, PE

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by IntrusDave View Post
        I'm more interested in runtime at 10~20% load.
        You answered your own question. 10% = 10 hours, 20% = 5 hours.
        MSEE, PE

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by inetdog View Post
          It is not completely clear from their diagrams whether the PV power is used for recharging the battery or just for supplementing the UPS output while on battery.
          It is just a plain ole everyday medium duty 10 Kva Dual Conversion UPS system. Like any UPS you connect the front end to a commercial AC power source. Under normal operating conditions the AC line is effectively supplying all power via the internal rectifiers. There is an optional add on Solar input and a standard Generator input. The batteries showed in the diagram are a 12 Kwh stack which they claim can support a 10 Kw load for one hour. The optional Solar input is extra, and has a max input of 10 Kw.
          MSEE, PE

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Sunking View Post
            You answered your own question. 10% = 10 hours, 20% = 5 hours.
            I've never seen a single UPS with a linear runtime. I've installed several APC Symmetra 16kVa double conversion systems, and not one has been linear. The efficiency of the drop as the load drops. i.e. the Symmetra units efficiency is only 55% at 4% load, where as they peak at 89.8% efficiency at 75% load.

            That said - the Rosewater "HUB" marketing sheet leaves out a lot of data needed to know exactly how this would run.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by IntrusDave View Post
              I've never seen a single UPS with a linear runtime.
              Neither have I but up till no wall UPS systems used conventional Lead Acid batteries where Peukert Law applies. Peukert Law on carbon lead acid is not an issue, so that makes run times fairly linear. To be honest I guessed at it because there is little information or specs with carbon lead acid batteries to go on with respect to Peukert Law. Carbon Lead Acid batteries have very low internal resistance which is where Peukert effect is derived. The lower the resistance, the lower the effect.
              MSEE, PE

              Comment


              • #22
                Sinking, Derek, the green line is NOT the PbC. It is the ultrabattery and that is most certainly NOT the same thing as the PbC.

                The PbC does not have a lead-carbon negative electrode like the ultrabattery.

                The negative electrode in the PbC is ALL carbon and that makes a HUGE difference.

                D

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dragon View Post
                  Sinking, Derek, the green line is NOT the PbC. It is the ultrabattery and that is most certainly NOT the same thing as the PbC.

                  The PbC does not have a lead-carbon negative electrode like the ultrabattery.

                  The negative electrode in the PbC is ALL carbon and that makes a HUGE difference.

                  D
                  Any references about hat?
                  [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Dragon View Post
                    Sinking, Derek, the green line is NOT the PbC. It is the ultrabattery and that is most certainly NOT the same thing as the PbC.
                    Sure it is. All you have to do is read the text:

                    The five entities that are actively developing lead-carbon battery technology are:
                    • MeadWestvaco (MWV), a packaging material and container manufacturing company that is developing activated carbon additives for the lead sulfate pastes used in conventional lead-acid batteries;
                    • Australia’s Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO), which has developed a split-electrode lead-carbon battery that it calls the Ultrabattery;
                    • Japan’s Furukawa Battery (Frankfurt - FBB.F), which licensed the Ultrabattery technology from CSIRO and has successfully road tested its device for 100,000 miles in a modified Honda hybrid;
                    • East Penn Manufacturing, a privately held manufacturer of lead-acid batteries that is using carbon additive pastes in experimental batteries and has recently acquired an exclusive U.S. sublicense to manufacture the Ultrabattery from Furukawa; and
                    • Axion Power International, a small manufacturer of lead-acid batteries that has developed a formidable U.S. patent portfolio in lead-carbon battery technology that will begin commercial production later this year and has partnered with Gaia Power Technologies for a NYSERDA funded utility substation support project that was discussed in the DOE’s 2008 Peer Review.


                    Cycle-life test results for the MeadWestvaco and East Penn batteries with carbon-enhanced pastes are both included in the Sandia graph, as are test results for the split-electrode CSIRO-Furukawa Ultrabattery. While Axion didn’t participate in last year’s tests,

                    All that SPLIT ELECTRODE means is one electrode is made of Lead, and the other is made of Carbon aka PbC. Ultra Battery is just a marketing gimmick.
                    MSEE, PE

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      All-carbon Axion negative electrode is a game-changer

                      Sunking (Derek),

                      The principle point of failure in a lead-acid battery is the lead negative electrode. The Ultrabattery has a split negative electrode, half of which is still lead and will still experience sulfation and failure very similar to a plain old lead-acid battery.

                      The PbC has no lead negative electrode, it is made of activated carbon which does not sulfate.

                      The carbon negative electrode in the PbC is the reason it has tested to 100,000+ cycles using a test protocol jointly designed with BMW, compared to about 10,000 cycles with the best AGM battery.

                      Please do not take my word for it though. You can follow this link to the presentation that Dr. Enders Dickinson made for the 13th European Lead Battery Conference just last year.

                      http://www.axionpower.com/Presentations

                      "Dr Dickinson emphasized that the total absence of plate sulfation in PbC batteries, which have no-lead pure-carbon anodes, is a critical differentiator in comparisons with traditional or advanced VRLA lead-acid batteries."

                      D

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by russ View Post
                        Any references about hat?
                        Russ, please see my comment just below. I was just trying to clarify for everyone, in case there is confusion, that Ultrabattery and the PbC are most certainly NOT the same thing.

                        Thank you,

                        D

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Dragon View Post
                          Russ, please see my comment just below. I was just trying to clarify for everyone, in case there is confusion, that Ultrabattery and the PbC are most certainly NOT the same thing.

                          Thank you,

                          D
                          I get their routine emails - The web page you linked to is new I believe.

                          As far as I can see they are simply flogging Rosewater's unit?
                          [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by russ View Post
                            I get their routine emails - The web page you linked to is new I believe.

                            As far as I can see they are simply flogging Rosewater's unit?
                            russ,

                            If you are referring to the Residential Energy Storage Hub:

                            Rosewater was involved very early in conceptualizing and defining it and is primarily responsible for marketing it and managing it from the distributor-customer perspective.

                            Axion Power engineered the residential-energy-hub, built the prototype and manufactures its PbC batteries including the critical activated-carbon negative electrodes which have a dedicated robotic assembly line.

                            For the overall product, Axion Power has stated that it may look to outside specialist companies if needed for large quantity assembly – which is obviously not the best and highest use of its advanced battery facilities and scientific/engineering staff.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Simple problem. All of Axiom claims cannot be verified. They refused to have 3rd party test. The technology exist. Three other manufactures other than Axiom offer the same technology and have had 3rd parth testing like Sandia National Labs.
                              MSEE, PE

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                It seems Axiom is just sticking it's fingers in many things that others have developed hoping that something pans out. Their technology changes every few months?

                                If they won't go to Sandia with their unit then it must either be vaporware or pure hustle.
                                [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X