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  • #16
    Originally posted by tandrews View Post
    Research has only just begun as is evident from my post.
    My last question remains unanswered however.

    While NiFes may last forever, and mine may in fact be just as functional as when they were stored so many years ago (SCORE!). I do expect that there will be a number of cells which will need new electrolyte to begin new life.

    Any references you can offer are welcome, as they add value to the thread and forum.
    You need KOH to make the electrolyte for NiFe
    MSEE, PE

    Comment


    • #17
      Yes, KOH as noted in my reference link.
      Further research uncovered:
      http://www.reddit.com/r/chemistry/co...batteries_diy/

      Suggesting 20-30% solution potassium hydroxide.
      It also notes that electrolytes (as in lead acids) simply concentrate when vapor is gassed off. Distilled may be all that is needed.

      So, my vintage Nicads which were most likely toast have suddenly been replaced by NiFes which will very likely take a charge and live on indefinitely. I am, as they say, tentatively stoked.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by tandrews View Post
        next reasonable question: where might one source replacement electrolyte?
        potassium hydroxide I believe. Avaib in 30# bags, and you add your own distilled water to mix the right solution. electrolyte is good for 10 years or so.
        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by tandrews View Post
          So, my vintage Nicads which were most likely toast have suddenly been replaced by NiFes which will very likely take a charge and live on indefinitely. I am, as they say, tentatively stoked.
          Lucky you. You have a great find. Many thousands of $$ in the amount of nickel in there, much more than in ni-cad.
          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

          Comment


          • #20
            I've gotten luckier!
            An older gentleman wanted these out of his barn as a friend had left them there some 25 years ago and since passed away.
            He even helped me break them out of the rotten boxes and pull some of the strings apart.



            So since I discovered my other cells were nifepo4, I've been scouring the net for info on how to ensure there is no crap in them, what to rinse them with or even how to best do so given only a filler hole. Many of the vent caps have crud in them, and storage has very likely exposed upper plates to air as the water osmotified itself out of solution over the decades they sat.
            Removing this contamination is high on the list to restoring function, like before new electrolyte.

            All I have found in the way of maintenance is "replace electrolyte", but that does not speak to removing contaminants like bugs, mice and dust and such.
            Does anyone have a hint on rejuvenation of these cells other then the "just replace electrolyte" suggestion?
            These appear to be A10s and my original score are A7s As pictured on page 14 of http://www.box.net/shared/dxqynlsfgacddbvtknan

            A further chart suggests the AH rating would be 75AH and 50AH respectively.
            I think I may be well set up once I get these in service.


            Edit: Flush with hot water??
            Page 6 troubleshooting:
            http://ironedison.com/images/product...s%20Manual.pdf

            Comment


            • #21
              I'd go to a brew supply store, and get a "bottle washer" which is a pipe, attached to a hose thread, with some angles slots to spray water in all directions.

              Half the plates are steel/iron, the others are nickle. You can't let the iron rust, as soon as you wash them, rinse with distilled water, you should fill with electrolyte
              One of the pics in my NiFe album in my sig below, has the weight ratio for the electrolyte, of water and dry PoH - it heats up, and must be mixed in either plastic or steel buckets.

              There is a USA (Northern states?) called Zapp Battery that rebuilds the Nife cells, maybe they will refurbish for you.
              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

              Comment


              • #22
                Thanks Mike, good tip (pun .
                I'm not looking forward to the job at all as it's dangerous, messy and difficult.
                Chances are though that the lion's share of contaminants will be sitting on top of the plates - at least that which didn't get dissolved by the current electrolyte sludge.

                Any tips on home neutralization of the vintage electrolyte (which I expect to be concentrated by time and evaporation)?
                http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1571.pdf

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tandrews View Post
                  .... Any tips on home neutralization of the vintage electrolyte (which I expect to be concentrated by time and evaporation)?
                  I would dilute it, a lot. Acids will neutralize it, but that will generate a LOT of heat & fumes. When diluted enough, it's a fertilizer. 1:100 should be pretty safe

                  Any spill on yourself, rinse off, and then blot with a rag with vinegar. The solution is very much like strong lye. Stronger than used for plumbing clogs.
                  It "feels" very slick or almost slimey - if you notice that at any time, wash , wash, wash, and then try a wipe with vinegar. By the time you feel it burning, damage is done to outer layers.

                  When I was mixing my battery solution, I ALWAYS had another person around, and a clear path to a working hose. Mistakes are BAD.
                  Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                  || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                  || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                  solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                  gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Thanks for the advice on Zapp refurb, but cost would outweigh benefits of a home refurb methinks.
                    That, and my investment is minimal to date, so if I have some bad cells, well then I have some bad cells.
                    These things are old enough that containment failure is now the larger concern then refurbed function so I'll be giving them a thorough going over prior to replenishing electrolyte.

                    Perhaps I will fertilize the sandy loam back lawn in the spring or even over some snow cover to further dilute:
                    http://www.incitecpivot.com/zone_fil...otassiumFS.pdf

                    I understand this *IS* strong lye.
                    Good for dissolving bodies, even those parts of your own you didn't plan to.
                    You can even make Meth with it!
                    http://askville.amazon.com/primary-p...estId=14780183

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Sourced KOH impurities - out of box concern?

                      I sourced some 90% KOH flake locally.

                      My first ever raw batch, so asking for input on purity of KOH necessary, or at what levels impurities may cause shortened electrolyte life.
                      I understand that is also a function of usage, storage etc, but base flake impurity levels are basis for my query here.
                      For those in the know, please comment on the batch I was provided. Reasoning is most welcome on your opinion as well.
                      My immediate concern is the level of carbonate not even out of the box...


                      It did come with a batch sheet of listed impurities:
                      %K2C03 - .2% .44%max
                      Chlorides (as KCL)% - .006-.015max%
                      Sulphates (as K2s04)% - .001-.0013%
                      Mercury - .1ppm
                      Fe - .2-3ppm
                      NaOH% - .4-.87%
                      Nickel - .1 -4ppm
                      Insoluble substances (passes test - what test I dunno)
                      Lead - 2ppm
                      Heavy metals - 20ppm

                      Since I have nothing to compare this to, I ask those who have something to compare to do so or better yet, share with the class.
                      Anyone?

                      Edit: This batch sourced locally, but shipped from ASHTA chemicals in Ohio.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Is this necessary?
                        http://www.hho-plus.com/product.php?id_product=17
                        This level of purity that is?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tandrews View Post
                          Is this necessary?
                          http://www.hho-plus.com/product.php?id_product=17
                          This level of purity that is?
                          Mike should be back on line in a couple of days - the rest of us have no idea.

                          I would be very careful about any site advertising hho as being good - pushing that shows the people involved are either of dubious mental capacity or without ethics
                          [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Post as reference to KOH purity only.
                            The HHO forum is a different beast altogether.

                            Subsequent research suggests that 90% pure KOH flake is the norm and pushed as electrolyte flake.
                            My concern is making electrolyte with .44% (worst case based on batch) carbonates built in.
                            While I'm sure it will work, how long and how well are subjective at this point.
                            I should also note that stepping up purity that 8-9% has a tenfold cost increase at minimum and so I may be overly concerned, and starting with "dirty flake" is the most fiscally responsible path, despite shorter replacement schedules. No plate harm, no plate foul.

                            The flake I purchased was $75CAD for 22kgs @90% purity.
                            Bring on the dirty flake I reckon...

                            I was hoping this post would spark someone's recollection of seeing batch sheet and that I might see a comparison, which was my motivation for posting mine.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              90% purity seems low, otherwise you would not need distilled water... If it's not too much effort, and you can change & rinse out easily, try it.

                              Mike

                              PS, my electrolyte flake came in plastic sacks, with twist ties. Might not have been any more than 90% either.
                              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                LIOH factory decarbonation of dirty KOH?

                                From what I've seen digging into this, it's much more common to find the purest KOH in pelletized form.
                                If it's flake, then it's likely plain Jane @ +-90%. Admitted assumption on that though.

                                I will be using distilled from the dehumidifiers as it's a cheap clean source.
                                With noted carbonates in the mix, tap water - even my relatively clean country well tap water is an added negative.
                                I have a 30v-10A power supply ordered for what will very likely become a daily cell rejuvenation ritual.

                                I still look forward to someone Else's batch sheet. It's a pretty important thing knowing what one starts with in the electrolyte lifecycle.
                                Probably more so then electrolyte charge temps and LIOH for how long and well it lasts.
                                I will not be using float oil, rather ensuring the one way vent tops are clean and seal well. There will be plenty of carbonate generation capability inside the cell during charge cycles. Perhaps float oil provides that carbon for HHO carbonate formation when float oil is used? At any rate, it's a cell contamination risk I don't wish upon myself so I see it as a fly in the ointment.

                                I haven't done the $math, but seems to me that making electrolyte with +-.44% carbonates would warrant the need to abschlorb that .44% with LIOH just to start clean with an electrolyte refresh.
                                LIOH can always be added after the fact, but even then additive purity is in question. Very likely the reason however for manufacturers including it rather then using <tenfold cost pure of KOH.
                                WHile LIOH is touted as the best method to increase charge/discharge efficiencies, it is likely due to how it removes the carbonate impurities that kill just that, no?

                                Some things to thunk about.

                                Edit:
                                This just in from my chem provider - price points and purities.
                                100g - lab grade - 75$ - 1% Li2CO3
                                500g - reagent grade - 185$ - 2% Li2CO3
                                courier costs in - both 98% LIOH, both contain further impurities (2% heavy metals, etc).

                                He did also confirm my assumption that KOH flake is the el cheapo lame version of the purer$$ 98-99% pelletized KOH.
                                This jives with my LIOH/KOH mix due to cost assumption, and probably doesn't surprise anyone reading this but may enlighten some.
                                Last edited by tandrews; 11-28-2011, 03:27 PM. Reason: LIOH info

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