Issues with Solar Company

[NorCalX]

Solarworld is the brand. Find a number related to that

For example sw280 mono or sw260

Might even have a w at the end (260w)

[sensij]

That's the offer we got from them and of course we'll take it. Basically, we can remove the egg from our face without going to court and throw good money after bad. So you're saying we should expect to pay around $3.75 per watt of energy output for our next system. Anything else we need to know or should be aware of? I'm assuming we need around double the amount of solar panels than we have now.

There is a lot you need to be aware of, and your assumptions are not good. You don't *need* anything... installing solar or not is, for most, about trying to reduce the cost of electricity.

Let's look at the system you have.

Cost was something like $12800. Knock off 30% federal tax credit means you had about $8960 out of pocket, and LADWP had been offering a $0.40 / W rebate as well, knocking another 3000 W * $0.40 = $1200 off, bringing the total out of pocket to $7760.

Your system produced 3789 kWh, and I can see that your upper tier electricity in the summer is about $0.215/kWh. Let's say the average cost of the electricity offset by your array is $0.20/kWh. 0.20 * 3789 = $758.

You can calculate the simple payback of your system by dividing your out of pocket cost by the amount saved per year... 7760 / 758 = ~10.2 years. Not great, but not bad considering the knowledge you had going into this, many out there are installing systems with payback much worse.

Now, let's look at what happens if you want to pursue an expansion to achieve 8000 kWh offset. The average cost of the electricity you will offset will drop from $0.20 / kWh to probably around $0.16 / kWh, about 20%. That means the payback on the rest of the system, all else being equal, goes from 10 years to 12 years. Not good.

What is most concerning is the output... <4000 kWh from an array close to 3 kW is not very good yield. That suggests the panels were put up at a less than optimal orientation, or maybe receive shading. However, those panels are already on the best part of your roof (presumably), and any additional panels are likely to yield even less, further hurting the payback.

Unless you are willing to really take the time to understand what's going on, I'd suggest that you install nothing else. Whatever concession you got by complaining will certainly pull your payback time to under 10 years, which is about as good as most people can get. Your system really wasn't awful.. maybe not as good as some, but not as bad as many others, either.

[Tanya]

Solarworld is the brand. Find a number related to that

For example sw280 mono or sw260

Might even have a w at the end (260w)

It says the system has 250 watt solar modules. Other than that it doesn't say anything about SolarWorld.

[Tanya]

There is a lot you need to be aware of, and your assumptions are not good. You don't *need* anything... installing solar or not is, for most, about trying to reduce the cost of electricity.

Let's look at the system you have.

Cost was something like $12800. Knock off 30% federal tax credit means you had about $8960 out of pocket, and LADWP had been offering a $0.40 / W rebate as well, knocking another 3000 W * $0.40 = $1200 off, bringing the total out of pocket to $7760.

Your system produced 3789 kWh, and I can see that your upper tier electricity in the summer is about $0.215/kWh. Let's say the average cost of the electricity offset by your array is $0.20/kWh. 0.20 * 3789 = $758.

You can calculate the simple payback of your system by dividing your out of pocket cost by the amount saved per year... 7760 / 758 = ~10.2 years. Not great, but not bad considering the knowledge you had going into this, many out there are installing systems with payback much worse.

Now, let's look at what happens if you want to pursue an expansion to achieve 8000 kWh offset. The average cost of the electricity you will offset will drop from $0.20 / kWh to probably around $0.16 / kWh, about 20%. That means the payback on the rest of the system, all else being equal, goes from 10 years to 12 years. Not good.

What is most concerning is the output... <4000 kWh from an array close to 3 kW is not very good yield. That suggests the panels were put up at a less than optimal orientation, or maybe receive shading. However, those panels are already on the best part of your roof (presumably), and any additional panels are likely to yield even less, further hurting the payback.

Unless you are willing to really take the time to understand what's going on, I'd suggest that you install nothing else. Whatever concession you got by complaining will certainly pull your payback time to under 10 years, which is about as good as most people can get. Your system really wasn't awful.. maybe not as good as some, but not as bad as many others, either.

Thanks for the info.

[solardreamer]

I'm not sure this is the proper venue for an epistle. Best answer and suggestion I can respectfully make to your question is to download a copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies" and read it. Knowledge is power.

You may have been taken advantage of because of your ignorance, but I'd guess you had little to no idea of what you were buying or it's limitations. The possibility your were ripped off is not your responsibility, and that whole situation sucks. Big time.

However, the responsibility for the ignorance that enabled such a situation to exist is, IMO, yours.

Once more, I'd guess, like me, many/most here are about 110+% on your side, but your willful ignorance had a big hand in what's developed up to now.

Everything you said is absolutely accurate. However, I can't help but think it also shows the sad state of consumer solar. If a typical consumer (more like the OP) needs to read the Dummies book and run PVWatts in order in order not to get cheated then it's hard to see how solar will ever gain broad consumer adoption. Something simpler is needed for typical consumers.

[NorCalX]

It says the system has 250 watt solar modules. Other than that it doesn't say anything about SolarWorld.

Look on page 4 of this thread. HX_Guy nailed it with his guess

12 panels x solarworld 250 = 3kw system and 4.25/watt

The next issue is using a tool called pvwatts for estimated output (google it)

But to be perfectly honest if getting system info was this hard you may not understand pvwatts.

I will tell you IMO they did not rip you off for 4.25 per watt. It is high but not fishy. I saw bids in the 5+ range recently in SF bay area

Fault with installation and energy production is beyond our ability to comment. They require specific details i doubt we can get from you easily

[J.P.M.]

If the system is removed, I'd look into what that says about your eligibility for future ITC/local tax credits for solar equipment on the same property or any tax consequences with regard to already taken credits.

[J.P.M.]

Everything you said is absolutely accurate. However, I can't help but think it also shows the sad state of consumer solar. If a typical consumer (more like the OP) needs to read the Dummies book and run PVWatts in order in order not to get cheated then it's hard to see how solar will ever gain broad consumer adoption. Something simpler is needed for typical consumers.

Accuracy is in the eye and mind of the reader.

I'd say it shows more about the sad state of consumers themselves and their willful, mentally slothful ignorance more than it says about the sad state of solar vendors. They (the vendors) may be - just like those present in most other businesses - no more than cynical opportunists taking advantage of that consumer ignorance. Is it right ? Hell no. Is it reality ? Opinions vary, but Caveat Emptor.

Anyway, I'm not sure anything can be made simple enough for an average (U.S.) consumer to understand.

I'd suggest that the awareness that the world is not full of people who will unfailingly do your bidding in an unfailingly honest way is part of something called common sense and the beginning of an educated, responsible consumer.

If I was about to spend $10K++ on something I knew nothing about, I'd sure as hell spend a few hours with a book, and about an hour or less getting familiar w/ PVWatts. As an alternative, if I was lazy, I'd hire a paid consultant with a signed contract for fiduciary services. Seems like common sense to me. Or even more commonsensical, that if I don't look out, I'll get ripped off. As in, if I think I can assume honesty without looking out for my own interests - basically trust but verify - I cannot lay blame elsewhere.

[Living Large]

In reading the flurry of posts this afternoon, I still see nothing to support that the OP was defrauded or "ripped off". What I see is that for whatever reason the OP was not informed on what realistically to expect from what was installed. Maybe they have trees shading some panels. Maybe the panels are facing a bad azimuth and/or elevation.

The only reason I can see for the company offering to tear the system out is that they believe their salesperson in fact represented that they could offset 80% of their usage.

I am glad they don't have to pursue legal action. That is an ugly process regardless of the circumstances.

[vudu]

Irrational exuberance

Seems to me a case of irrational exuberance - it happens all the time with solar. I've experienced it myself.

If you had paid $8 per kwh, I'd say you got ripped off. $4 or so is in the ball park. At most you were victimized by some shady salesmanship which would have been less likely if you had done your homework.

A tough pill to swallow I know, no offense, Tanya.

Buyers remorse can be a real ugly monkey though - get it off your roof if you must. Probably not worth the heartburn in the long run.

[silversaver]

Accuracy is in the eye and mind of the reader.

.

+1

now, you have good example of ignorant decision. I'm surprise to see this, as other would think solar company like to sell you a oversize system. In this case I do see the installer taking the right step dealing with heat customer.

[maximizese]

I'm still in the planning phase of residential solar. I've read Solar Power Your Home for Dummies, met with salespeople from 2 highly rated installers through solar reviews, and I downloaded the Ca solar statistics worksheet to find their average installed $/watt. Upon follow up to their proposals, I was able to negotiate them both down close to their average $/watt based on systems under 5kW, and I'm still looking into two more highly rated contractors. I'll take the OPs story as a warning to look into a performance guarantee and to make sure any performance claims are written into the contract.

After reading the entire thread, it appears that the OP expected a lot more than what they received, which may have been influenced or misunderstood from the salesperson. The OP seemed a little slow to report the system components, size, and $/watt, but I'm sure they will do their homework before signing another solar contract. I had a very similar system proposal drawn up:

3.120 kW DC Power (STC)
5,077 kWh Est Annual Production
12 - Hanwha Q-Cells 260
1 - SMA SB3000TL-US-22

$12,480 before tax credit or $4/watt

I was able to negotiate this down to $11,544 just by saying I'd like to pay around $3.70/watt. Without hesitation, my salesperson said that wouldn't be a problem at all.

[cebury]

Tanya: I would definitely re-read SensiJ's thread because he really nailed where you go from here. I don't think you were ripped off at all, just obvious miscommunication as you bought a smaller sized system than you were expecting. Their perspective, and it's factually true, you didn't pay for a 80% offset system and receive a 40% one. Your costs were reasonable (for that time) for a 40% offset and you received 40%. You thought you were paying for 80% which would have near doubled the price you were quoted. If I decided to stick with solar despite SensiJ's noting the long payback periods, I would've negotiated with PD to add more panels at a deep discount, rather than removing them.

For others: Petersen Dean's estimate/proposal was presented differently than others. It had costs and kwh numbers, but all details about the panels are attached in a different pdf. So it doesn't surprise me Tanya didn't easily know the exact panels she had.

In CA (at the current time) they are only installing SolarWorld panels with string or Enphase, no optimizers. They are switching their inverters from SMA to Fronius (or vice versa, memory fading already) due to one going more off-shore production. They are trying to go American as much as possible.

They have a 30 year production guarantee, a sounds-too-good trade-in program to sell back and upgrade your panels. They also offer free panel removal/replacement if you have THEM upgrade your roof anytime down the road. All features are transferable with the system. These could all be promo junk only, as each may have very little real value when the numbers are run at opt time. Their MPU is a flat $3000.

Oh and each time I said "Thanks but costs are a little too high" they came back a couple days later with lower offers on their own.

[solarix]

I'm not inferring the following syndrome is the problem with this OP, but the general problem we have with customer expectations is that once they have a solar system, they think that - "now that I have free electricity, I can use more of it) and their usage goes up. This is hard to document using the utility bill as it only measures net usage and the customer naturally thinks that the solar system is under-producing. It generally takes an extra visit from us to verify the system is operating properly, patiently explain the situation to people and help them figure out where the extra usage is coming from...

[deyounte]

Loss of Tax Credits and Rebates

If the system is removed, I'd look into what that says about your eligibility for future ITC/local tax credits for solar equipment on the same property or any tax consequences with regard to already taken credits.

Bingo!

Tanya,

Watch out and do your research before you accept the refund. I don't know the answer to what J.P.M. has pointed out, but I would be very concerned that you have used up (some/all?) your eligibility for future Solar tax credits and rebates by taking them on your current system. This could cause you to have to pay more, most, or all of the full price for the next system. The result could be that you may end up locking yourself out of the solar market simply because the financial payback numbers won't work. (I don't know and maybe others that have more specific information on the tax credits and rebates can help here.)

I don't doubt that you may had been told verbally that this would cover 80% of your usage or bill, simply because you have a number (80%) and probably weren't dreaming that up, but step back and take a look at it again by setting aside your hurt and anger. I'm sure that verbal commitment (80%) factored into your decision to buy, but now that you have the system, if you ever plan on buying again you may be putting yourself into a worse financial position by accepting this refund. I don't know enough to advise you in absolutes, but I am recommending that you consider these words and do some research first. Also, see if others here can fill in my gaps to help as well.

In my opinion the $4.25/Watt is a bit high until you take into consideration that the system is small and thus there are some fixed costs (for any sized system) that make that number higher than would be a larger system. We also should factor into the cost that this was installed back in 2014 when the prices were still sliding downward, so that may have been an "ok" price at the time for the size of system in your location.

Another piece to this is that typically electric rates are tiered. The meaning is that as you use more electricity the rate you pay for the additional energy is higher. The small offset you are getting (approx 40%) would normally offset the most expensive (highest tier in your specific bill) electricity and in spite of the possible/likely(?) verbal misrepresentation by the salesperson, you are getting the most benefit by this small system because it is offsetting the most expensive part of the electrical usage. (I'll leave it to the experts on your local utility to chime in about the tier structure, but quite often this is how it works.)

I'm new to this forum too. I have learned a lot here and I've made mistakes. In the end though much of my mistakes is because I simply didn't know enough to ask the right questions. I've recovered from most of my mistakes based on information in these forums. (Working on one of them today, BTW. <My system to be installed next Monday, BTW>)

Tanya, I also need to say that you've had patience while riding through the expert opinions here. Please forgive some responses that seem terse as sometimes with written word it is easy to read emotion/tone into the responses that isn't there. I know. I do that too sometimes. There is a lot of help here and it's still coming.

Sincerely and with kindness,

Tim D.
Melbourne, FL