On-Grid or Off-Grid

[ColoradoBound]

I am looking at purchasing a property that is currently off-grid but the grid is nearby. I received a quote from the power company of about 40k to run power to the property. If it were you would you spend the 40k and have grid power and install an off-grid PV system?

[Amy@altE]

You have to do the difficult task of figuring out how much power you need to run the house off-grid. Is it currently built and they have records of how much fuel is consumed (assuming it is run off a generator)? If not, you need to search for a loads list calculator, and figure out everything you need to power. Everything. From there you can use an off grid calculator to figure out what size system you need, and determine if the cost and lifestyle change is worth being off-grid. Remember there will be recurring costs of batteries, so figure that into the equation.

[peakbagger]

You also need to factor in how long you plan to stay there. An off grid property is very difficult to sell and its highly unlikely that you will be able to get back the cost for building a off grid system. If you have a long time horizon and don't care about resale I think that technology is rapidly approaching the point where battery cost and longevity may be less of an issue, but currently an off gird system is going to boost your power cost long term to 3 to 5 times the cost of grid power.

[ColoradoBound]

You also need to factor in how long you plan to stay there. An off grid property is very difficult to sell and its highly unlikely that you will be able to get back the cost for building a off grid system. If you have a long time horizon and don't care about resale I think that technology is rapidly approaching the point where battery cost and longevity may be less of an issue, but currently an off gird system is going to boost your power cost long term to 3 to 5 times the cost of grid power.

We are not planning on selling anytime soon (if ever) but would like to be able to recover some of the costs if we did have to sell.

In my calculations I'm seeing between 2x and 5x the costs (depending on how much we need to run a generator) and I understand that the batteries would need to be replaced at some point. Part of my thinking is it is like we will have "free" power for a while since the solar (with my rough calculations) will be cheaper than the 40k we would have to pay to get grid power installed.

[peakbagger]

I generally refer to this as the "buried in the backyard approach". It all comes down to tolerance, for most off gridders power goes from a utility to a luxury. This is not necessarily a bad thing but, it requires a change in lifestyle that many aren't interested in. Sure you can throw money at a system to make it simulate a utility but most try to start out cheap and end up reworking the system multiple times. You also need to be technically competent to do your own work including maintenance and understand the system in detail. If someone else designs and installs it, its likely that when it fails you are out of luck at some point when you cant get the designer on the phone.

There is also a consideration on the climate at your location. In my location, if I go away in the winter for an extended period, I will need a reliable source of power to keep my building from turning into a popsicle. In more temperate climes that is not as critical. This may last a week or two in January and into February. Thus I would either need a very large battery bank good for several days or a reliable standby generator most likely fed from propane as diesels don't like cold weather. You also have to be careful that you don't get dependent on another fuel. Many off gridders go propane, so they are switching one dependence with another. If on the other hand, of you decide that you just wont travel during cold weather you can hunker down and run the wood stove and live with whatever the system will put out or burn a lot of propane and hope the truck can make it down the driveway. Since I am grid connected, my insurance is pretty cheap to cover any damage from the rare times when the utility fails but I expect that similar coverage for off grid is probably unavailable at any price.

I used to live in VT for awhile in a area where there were more than a few off gridders and much larger contingent of ex off gridders. The standard story for the ex off gridders was after the "fill in the blank" disaster (electrical fire, house freezing, lightning strike, inverter failure, etc ) and the inevitable running on a generator for weeks at a time they were glad when the power line was finally hooked up. Their initial off grid investment intended to replace utility power was just a significant down payment to delay hooking up to power.

With respect to batteries, many folks advocate a set of "learners batteries", start out with cheap batteries and when you inevitably kill them and have to write the check for a new bank, you will very quickly become someone who takes care of their batteries. Alternatively you can write a big check for nickel iron batteries which are represented as unkillable but just get used to pouring lots of distilled water as they have the reputation of being thirsty.

[Sunking]

In my calculations I'm seeing between 2x and 5x the costs (depending on how much we need to run a generator) and I understand that the batteries would need to be replaced at some point. Part of my thinking is it is like we will have "free" power for a while since the solar (with my rough calculations) will be cheaper than the 40k we would have to pay to get grid power installed.

No such thing as free power so get that out of your head. Batteries need replaced every few years. For each Kwh of usable power just in battery cost is $1000 for a 3 year battery, to $1500 for a 5 to 6 year battery. Th ebest deal is the $1500/Kwh and based on 5 years of pampered batteries means you are paying in battery cost alone is $1500 / 1865 Kwh = $0.804 per Kwh. That is 5 to 8 times more than the power company charges. Cost of batteries rise faster than electric rates, so when replacement time comes in a few years your cost go higher. So much for the Free Power idea.

Additionally if you need more power than th esystem can generate in a day, Tuff Titty said the Kitty, do without or start up the generator. POCO has unlimited power use all you want.

So what you need to do is determine exactly how many Kwh per day you will need under worse case conditions. National average is 30 Kwh per day. It will cost you roughly $2500 to $3000 per Kwh just for the Panels, Controller, and Battery. Does not include things like Inverter, wiring, equipment panels, labor and all the misc hardware to make it work or labor. Unless you are a hermit that can get by on a few Kwh per day, and do not mind being without power from time to time, The POCO option is most likely the best bargain. You have to figure it out yourself.

Lastly if you think off-grid is earth friendly think again. It makes you a heavy polluter and wasting valuable resources.

[ColoradoBound]

No such thing as free power so get that out of your head. Batteries need replaced every few years. For each Kwh of usable power just in battery cost is $1000 for a 3 year battery, to $1500 for a 5 to 6 year battery. Th ebest deal is the $1500/Kwh and based on 5 years of pampered batteries means you are paying in battery cost alone is $1500 / 1865 Kwh = $0.804 per Kwh. That is 5 to 8 times more than the power company charges. Cost of batteries rise faster than electric rates, so when replacement time comes in a few years your cost go higher. So much for the Free Power idea.

Maybe "free" power was the wrong way to say it, but if the initial solar purchase is the same or less than the 40k grid tie that I would have to spend to get grid power then I am out the same amount of money and (assuming away troubles) would be good to go until I needed batteries, which would make the initial kWh essentially 0 cost. I know there would be propane for the generator and other on-going costs and I would have to purchase a new set of batteries at some point.

I am looking at Solar-One HUP batteries and my calculations show them to come out to $0.13/kWh over their warrantied lifetime.

Lastly if you think off-grid is earth friendly think again. It makes you a heavy polluter and wasting valuable resources.

Never said I thought being off-grid is earth friendly

[Sunking]

I am looking at Solar-One HUP batteries and my calculations show them to come out to $0.13/kWh over their warrantied lifetime.

Impossible. Find one single person that has done it. Hup is decent but not the best not the longest lasting. That honor goes to Trojan Industrial line and Rolls 5000 series.

How deeply discharge did you use. 20% is the norm to get maximum cycle life. Go to 50% DOD and you cut cycle life 75%.

Having said that if solar cost the same as the utility initial install, then the utility is a bargain to good to pass up. Been doing this professionally for 35 years. Everything from nuclear sub marine batteries to commercial off-grid systems for cellular telephone companies who can afford to use the best. If you think the battery cost is 13-cents per Kwh over the life of the battery, you will learn a very expensive lesson in about 5 years you will not like. Only way off-grid will be cheaper is if you live like a hermit using less than 5 Kwh/day.

Yep I am a hard ass, but I care more about your money and future than you do. So do the math and homework. You have been told, don't learn the hard way.

[ColoradoBound]

Impossible. Find one single person that has done it. Hup is decent but not the best not the longest lasting. That honor goes to Trojan Industrial line and Rolls 5000 series.

How deeply discharge did you use. 20% is the norm to get maximum cycle life. Go to 50% DOD and you cut cycle life 75%.

Since I have not used any batteries in an off-grid install I can't personally speak of the longevity of the batteries but the HUP has a better warranty, 10 years with 7 year non-prorated replacement compared to the Rolls 5000 7 year with 3 year non-prorated.

Yep I am a hard ass, but I care more about your money and future than you do. So do the math and homework. You have been told, don't learn the hard way.

I doubt you care more about my money than I do. I did not say I was for sure going solar, I was just asking for opinions.

Anyone else have any opinions?

[solar pete]

I am looking at purchasing a property that is currently off-grid but the grid is nearby. I received a quote from the power company of about 40k to run power to the property. If it were you would you spend the 40k and have grid power and install an off-grid PV system?

Howdy ColoradoBound, well you need to give this a lot of thought, read up and listen to the more experienced folk then do what ever you want to do. To me I would be factoring in time at the property, as in are you going to stay there 10 or 20 years? If your going to be there closer to 20 years I think its worth going through the loads analysis task, (it can be painful but it has to be done) if your loads are relatively small say 15 kWh per day it might be worth it, if its closer to 30 kWh probably not. So keep reading and good luck, cheers.

[foo1bar]

If it were you would you spend the 40k and have grid power and install an off-grid PV system?

How much more is a similar property with grid power worth?
$30k more? $80k more?


If your best estimate is that it's more than $40k, easy choice.
If your best estimate is less, then figure out how much it'll cost in running generator for a year. Then use that to figure out how quickly it'll pay off to have the grid power run.

ex; $40k to run power, worth $25k in property value; $5k for generator/year ==> (($40-$25)/$5) == ~3 years and you're better off paying for the lines.

And if the owner of the neighboring parcel would like power brought to it too, it may work out even better for you and them. Maybe it's $45K for the two properties instead of $40k - but maybe now both properties are worth $25k more, so you're both getting a net benefit.
And it's worth talking to the neighbor - and this is a good excuse to talk to the neighbor anyhow. (And frankly I'd put just as much weight on the neighbors in a rural area as I would on whether it costs me $40k to get power brought in)

[ColoradoBound]

Howdy ColoradoBound, well you need to give this a lot of thought, read up and listen to the more experienced folk then do what ever you want to do. To me I would be factoring in time at the property, as in are you going to stay there 10 or 20 years? If your going to be there closer to 20 years I think its worth going through the loads analysis task, (it can be painful but it has to be done) if your loads are relatively small say 15 kWh per day it might be worth it, if its closer to 30 kWh probably not. So keep reading and good luck, cheers.

We plan on staying there for a long time 20+ years but as with all things plans can change.

I don't mind doing a load analysis. It is a bit tough because I currently live in Alabama where A/C is a must but in Colorado where the property is located A/C is not needed.

I have been reading up on this forum and elsewhere and am definitely interested in what more experienced folk think. Trying to get all the information I can so I can make an informed decision.

[ColoradoBound]

And if the owner of the neighboring parcel would like power brought to it too, it may work out even better for you and them. Maybe it's $45K for the two properties instead of $40k - but maybe now both properties are worth $25k more, so you're both getting a net benefit.
And it's worth talking to the neighbor - and this is a good excuse to talk to the neighbor anyhow. (And frankly I'd put just as much weight on the neighbors in a rural area as I would on whether it costs me $40k to get power brought in)

There are no neighbors close by and since the property is 100 acres the 40k is jut to run the lines on the property.

[Sunking]

There are no neighbors close by and since the property is 100 acres the 40k is jut to run the lines on the property.

If this is a coop or REC and even some privately owned POCO's will allow you to contract out the work to a qualified contractor. I have worked for and with utilities most of my career, and they all work the same model.

Years ago utilities had all their own engineers, lineman, and crews that allowed them to do everything in house. As we have learned that is nice but a very piss poor way to do things. They cannot keep them busy year round. So they fired most of them and now use contractors. Saves them a lot of money and time. The price they are quoting you is roughly twice what it cost them to do the work. They farm it out to a contractor, and then add on their profit of 100%. It is understandable because if you were a large user they would do it for free. Reality is you are small potatoes and they will never make a dime off you. So they make what little money they can all up front and basically do nothing except shuffle papers and has a Service Rep make the final connections.

So if I were you I would ask the POCO if you can use your own contractor to run the lines. You can use the exact same contractor they use. It should save you roughly 50%.

Good luck.

[ColoradoBound]

If this is a coop or REC and even some privately owned POCO's will allow you to contract out the work to a qualified contractor. I have worked for and with utilities most of my career, and they all work the same model.

Years ago utilities had all their own engineers, lineman, and crews that allowed them to do everything in house. As we have learned that is nice but a very piss poor way to do things. They cannot keep them busy year round. So they fired most of them and now use contractors. Saves them a lot of money and time. The price they are quoting you is roughly twice what it cost them to do the work. They farm it out to a contractor, and then add on their profit of 100%. It is understandable because if you were a large user they would do it for free. Reality is you are small potatoes and they will never make a dime off you. So they make what little money they can all up front and basically do nothing except shuffle papers and has a Service Rep make the final connections.

So if I were you I would ask the POCO if you can use your own contractor to run the lines. You can use the exact same contractor they use. It should save you roughly 50%.

Good luck.

The POCO is Black Hill Energy. I never thought about asking if I could use my own contractor, I will see what they say.