Cheapo Inverters vs. Expensive Ones

[eric@psmnv]

I am done following links.

My previous comment was to someone else, but thanks for your input.

Unfortunately, I still have not seen an answer to the basic question. Assuming an inexpensive inverter in the $600 range can be located that features the coveted UL mark, is there any reason to think that it would not do the job as well as the seemingly overpriced Magnum unit?

[inetdog]

My previous comment was to someone else, but thanks for your input.

Unfortunately, I still have not seen an answer to the basic question. Assuming an inexpensive inverter in the $600 range can be located that features the coveted UL mark, is there any reason to think that it would not do the job as well as the seemingly overpriced Magnum unit?

If warranty is the same and the company will be around for the length of the warranty, possibly not.

[lkruper]

My previous comment was to someone else, but thanks for your input.

Unfortunately, I still have not seen an answer to the basic question. Assuming an inexpensive inverter in the $600 range can be located that features the coveted UL mark, is there any reason to think that it would not do the job as well as the seemingly overpriced Magnum unit?

Irrelevant (to me). They vendor has the burden of proof, and the web sites don't provide any. I never buy anything without verifiable reviews and even then I don't always trust the reviews.

Do you understand the burden of proof concept? It means that the one making the claim bears the burden of proof, a proof that is non existent in these products.

[eric@psmnv]

From the link itself I can see that it is a 5000w inverter which will not be safe (ie > 100 amps) even at 48 volts.

I think you're still missing the basic question. I'm just comparing the $2200 Magnum inverter sold by wholesalesolar.com in their off-grid kits to cheaper inverters with the same specs. Are you saying that the Magnum inverter sold by wholesalesolar.com which has the same specs is also unsafe? Should I contact them and ask how they can sell such an unsafe product?

[eric@psmnv]

Do you understand the burden of proof concept?

Now, don't be mean. I thought you said earlier that the UL listing met your requirements for burden of proof. It now appears that you are adding "verifiable reviews" to the requirement, which is reasonable. What other elements do you consider necessary to meet the burden of proof to your personal satisfaction? Aside from a UL listing and verifiable reviews, what else does a web site need to display to meet your standard of proof?

[lkruper]

I think you're still missing the basic question. I'm just comparing the $2200 Magnum inverter sold by wholesalesolar.com in their off-grid kits to cheaper inverters with the same specs. Are you saying that the Magnum inverter sold by wholesalesolar.com which has the same specs is also unsafe? Should I contact them and ask how they can sell such an unsafe product?

They don't have the same specs:

Safe and reliable: The MS2000, MS2012, MS2812, and MS4024 are ETL
Listed to the stringent requirements of UL/cUL 458 for mobile use and the
MS2012, MS2812, and MS4024 are ETL Listed UL 1741 and CSA C22.2 #107.1-
01 for renewable energy installations. All models also meet KKK-A-1822E
standards for emergency vehicle use.

[eric@psmnv]

If warranty is the same and the company will be around for the length of the warranty, possibly not.

Thanks. Now I'm getting closer to an answer. It doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to buy something cheapo. It just means that I want to understand the differences before making a decision.

[lkruper]

Now, don't be mean. I thought you said earlier that the UL listing met your requirements for burden of proof. It now appears that you are adding "verifiable reviews" to the requirement, which is reasonable. What other elements do you consider necessary to meet the burden of proof to your personal satisfaction? Aside from a UL listing and verifiable reviews, what else does a web site need to display to meet your standard of proof?

If it does not have credible listing from Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory I would never read the reviews. I reject immediately. If it does, then I read the reviews and especially ask advice from seasoned veterans who don't have anything to gain from my choice.

It sounds to me like you do advertising for Alibaba Do you?

[eric@psmnv]

They don't have the same specs:

Safe and reliable: The MS2000, MS2012, MS2812, and MS4024 are ETL
Listed to the stringent requirements of UL/cUL 458 for mobile use and the
MS2012, MS2812, and MS4024 are ETL Listed UL 1741 and CSA C22.2 #107.1-
01 for renewable energy installations. All models also meet KKK-A-1822E
standards for emergency vehicle use.

Sorry, maybe you missed the part of my previous comment where I said if I find one that meets the same specs, UL listing, etc. I am no longer comparing the Magnum product to the Safe and Reliable product. I am saying if I find one with the same specs in a lower price range, is there something I'm missing? Never mind, I think we're kind of talking past each other. I appreciate you trying to answer my question.

[eric@psmnv]

It sounds to me like you do advertising for Alibaba Do you?

That's funny. I was about to ask what big-name expensive solar product or installation company you work for.

I'm just a computer networking guy in Nevada. My company hosts medical records for doctors. Ask me a question about data center network infrastructure or data communications protocols and I'm your guy. However, I am obviously clueless about solar electricity, and really electricity in general.

[lkruper]

Sorry, maybe you missed the part of my previous comment where I said if I find one that meets the same specs, UL listing, etc. I am no longer comparing the Magnum product to the Safe and Reliable product. I am saying if I find one with the same specs in a lower price range, is there something I'm missing? Never mind, I think we're kind of talking past each other. I appreciate you trying to answer my question.

I was responding to this statement of your: Are you saying that the Magnum inverter sold by wholesalesolar.com which has the same specs is also unsafe? Should I contact them and ask how they can sell such an unsafe product?

I did miss the if.

[jflorey2]

I have a hard time believing that all these products are out there causing fires in homes all over the place.

They are not "causing fires in homes all over the place."

I've used several Chinese no-name inverters over the years. They tend to fail moderately gracefully. The most common way is to just start blowing DC fuses; I had three inverters do that after a few weeks to years of use. (Needless to say you should never ever connect one directly to the battery; then you might start fires, but it would be your fault rather than the inverters.)

One started arcing internally. It actually still worked, but started to smell very bad, and I stopped using it. Meant to fix it but never got around to it. It _might_ have started a fire if I left it running for long enough, but I stopped using it before anything like that could have happened.

Another one had an LVD that started disconnecting at higher and higher voltages, making it useless.

Overall, though, about 50% of them worked reliably for as long as I used them, although I did not test them to their limits.

I compare them to the "top tier" inverters I've used over the years - a pair of SW5548's, an SW4024, an SW2512, a Prosine 1800, and an Outback GVFX3648. I had one failure (one of the 5548's) and that was due to serious mistreatment of the inverter (running it at over rated load with air inlet blocked.) No problems with any of the others.

It's your money. If you can afford it, and really want a Chinese inverter rather than a more reliable one, then get it. Take the usual precautions against fire and short circuit. It will most likely work for a while. And even if it doesn't, you will learn something from the experience. The odds of a fire are low but present, and only you can decide if you want to take that risk.

[eric@psmnv]

They are not "causing fires in homes all over the place."

I've used several Chinese no-name inverters over the years. They tend to fail moderately gracefully. The most common way is to just start blowing DC fuses; I had three inverters do that after a few weeks to years of use. (Needless to say you should never ever connect one directly to the battery; then you might start fires, but it would be your fault rather than the inverters.)

One started arcing internally. It actually still worked, but started to smell very bad, and I stopped using it. Meant to fix it but never got around to it. It _might_ have started a fire if I left it running for long enough, but I stopped using it before anything like that could have happened.

Another one had an LVD that started disconnecting at higher and higher voltages, making it useless.

Overall, though, about 50% of them worked reliably for as long as I used them, although I did not test them to their limits.

I compare them to the "top tier" inverters I've used over the years - a pair of SW5548's, an SW4024, an SW2512, a Prosine 1800, and an Outback GVFX3648. I had one failure (one of the 5548's) and that was due to serious mistreatment of the inverter (running it at over rated load with air inlet blocked.) No problems with any of the others.

It's your money. If you can afford it, and really want a Chinese inverter rather than a more reliable one, then get it. Take the usual precautions against fire and short circuit. It will most likely work for a while. And even if it doesn't, you will learn something from the experience. The odds of a fire are low but present, and only you can decide if you want to take that risk.

Okay, now that's some excellent information. Exactly the sort of feedback I'm looking for. To be honest, it sounds like a risk I would be willing to take. If I am really concerned that the unit might break after a while, I could buy one or two spares just to keep on-hand and still save a load of money!

[LETitROLL]

I hear you, and I am certainly in that phase right now, but I do not give up easily. Here's a page that lists about a zillion similar products.

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/5000w-power-inverter-48v-pure-sine-wave_3.html

I have a hard time believing that all these products are out there causing fires in homes all over the place.

The basic simple answer is that inverters for large loads need to be very heavy duty, and the parts and manufacturing methods to achieve that are not cheap. So in most/all cases cheap inverters are a mix of not putting out as much as they say, and almost always put out dirtier power than quality more expensive versions, which shortens the life of the loads you plug into them, some people that run reasonable loads of products that are not sensitive to low quality power do fine with cheapo inverters, but all in all those are the type of inverters that earned the nickname "smoke in a can". The best bet is to define a inverter budget then get the best (new or used) quality inverter for that price, it will run as many or more loads than a higher rated cheapo inverter. The cheapo inverters are real and they do work (sometimes) but the ratings are a mirage, so you dont end up getting the great deal you thought you got, especially after you factor in the price you ended up paying for the new TV and Refrigerator 3 months later.

[Bucho]

What am I missing here?

That the Chinese are lying to you.