The Max Smoke charging model

[Rainwulf]

Why is my hydrometer ****? Its temperature compensated, and its clean heh

That explains it the humour then. Us aussies use cheers as a relatively benign "thanks mate"

These are my current charge rates:


I usually get into absorption charge by 11am, which is limited to 2 hours and then goes to float for the next 3-4 hours. Does that match an AC charger mapping? Or do i stick with max smoke.

I am heading out soon to go pick up another hydrometer from a solar/battery place.

[Sunking]

I usually get into absorption charge by 11am, which is limited to 2 hours and then goes to float for the next 3-4 hours.

No that is the problem, the Absorption Stage is NOT a timed event. Any good AC charger does not terminate Absorb until the charge current has tapered down to 1 to 2 % of C. That takes several hours or time which a solar system does not likely have. A proper EQ charge takes 12 to 24 hours, and that is after the battery has been fully charged.

Now you are lucky to be in a good area. Sounds like Bala your system may bee over sized which is a good thing. But the only way to find out what Voltage is best for you is using a good Temp Comp Hydrometer. We are talking less than $10 USD to have precision tool. You know you got it right when you only have to add water about once a month when you start up the genny and put an EQ charge on them. Voltage is only a relative indicator, but SG is the only real time accurate measurement.

[Bala]

I don't doubt that one bit. I think you are one of the smart 5% crowd. All I am suggesting is since you have confirmed your system is Over Sized, you might look at relaxing voltages. You have confirmed over charge when you said you are at Float by 10:00 am, and adding water every week. You are one of the few rare people who system size is adequate. As you said you have to tune it in. My bet is just a Single Stage Float. No stages just a Constant Voltage. aka Float Charge.

I dont know that its over sized, we have discussed it in the distant past on the now gone forum. You helped me in detail understand Sg V temp soc using the graphs in the manual among other things. i think by todays math it may be deemed I dont have enough panel wattage.

But I only use a about 20% of capacity so recharge is quick.

Not long ago we did discuss this water use and I did drop V back. it did ease water use but I ended up with undercharged and unequalised batteries. So I set it back to what it was, ran and equalise charge at which I could only get them to 30V, but over a few days I got them equalised. Checked them yesterday and they are still fine after a few months. I rarely need to equalise, I assume as they gas so much and are fully charegd so much.

In a perfect world you you be home all the time and you could tune your charging daily, but thats not practical so we just have to work out a balance. My strategy all along has been to keep them as charged as possible. It may not be the best ROI but changing batteries often is not something I want to do either.

[Willy T]

A proper EQ charge takes 12 to 24 hours, and that is after the battery has been fully charged.

Someone must be writing a new book, " How to destroy your batteries ". This is dangerous advice, ignore it. Equalization charge is terminated when the SG stops rising on a FLA battery. The SG level is checked every 30- 60 minutes and the temperature of the battery ( bank ) is monitored and kept bellow 115° F. The EQ charge can be started and stopped to maintain a temperature below it. A EQ charge must always be monitored.

There a few AGM batteries that can have a Equalization Charge applied to them. Most people that have them know it and can check the manufacturers instructions for doing it.

[lkruper]

Willy, you quoted Sunking with "A proper EQ charge takes 12 to 24 hours, and that is after the battery has been fully charged. "

"Then you continued to disagree and say that one needs to check the SQ and said:
Someone must be writing a new book, " How to destroy your batteries ". This is dangerous advice, ignore it. Equalization charge is terminated when the SG stops rising on a FLA battery. The SG level is checked every 30- 60 minutes and the temperature of the battery ( bank ) is monitored and kept bellow 115° F. The EQ charge can be started and stopped to maintain a temperature below it. A EQ charge must always be monitored.

There a few AGM batteries that can have a Equalization Charge applied to them. Most people that have them know it and can check the manufacturers instructions for doing it. "

But what Sunking said, in full was:

"No that is the problem, the Absorption Stage is NOT a timed event. Any good AC charger does not terminate Absorb until the charge current has tapered down to 1 to 2 % of C. That takes several hours or time which a solar system does not likely have. A proper EQ charge takes 12 to 24 hours, and that is after the battery has been fully charged.

Now you are lucky to be in a good area. Sounds like Bala your system may bee over sized which is a good thing. But the only way to find out what Voltage is best for you is using a good Temp Comp Hydrometer. We are talking less than $10 USD to have precision tool. You know you got it right when you only have to add water about once a month when you start up the genny and put an EQ charge on them. Voltage is only a relative indicator, but SG is the only real time accurate measurement." (emphasis added)

Willy, you made it sound like checking the SG was your idea and something that Sunking does not advocate and something he did not tell the user to do.

At least that is the impression I got from reading your rebuttal.

It sounds like you do agree with Sunking.

[Sunking]

Willy is just a Green with ENVY JEALOUS HACK with a Chip On His Shoulders. Just a Hillbilly living in a Trailer in Tennessee. Besides he knows better. He has already read the Sticky where I taught him how to take the Specific Gravity reading in the first place. So all you hear from poor ole Willy is Sour Grapes and Jealous Green with Envy. He is that unwelcome guest that shows up no one likes and wished would leave.

--Mod Note: Cool it on the personal attacks please.
Argumentum Ad Hominem is a recognized rhetorical technique, but is not equally recognized by logical reasoning.

[skipro3]

I've maintained several mountain top radio and microwave site run solely on batteries and solar. They all have had the batteries last 10 years or more even though the sites are unheated. They are located in the California Sierras as high as 8000. I load test them every 3 years to confirm their capacity and condition. Other than topping some pine trees, they are maintenance free. Just saying that in the real world, solar charging works.

[Willy T]

Where I disagree with Sunking is he makes these statements that a novice battery user could try and end up with a situation with thermal runaway or fire and end up killing themselves.

A Absorption cycle is a normal charge cycle and a Equalization Charge is special and has special requirements and has no relation to his statement as far as it not being timed and using Ending amps. A bank that is daily cycled would rarely take more than 3-5 hours of Equalization . A single battery could be given special attention for a little longer, but if the SG's are not rising, you Stop.


He a labeler and name caller and I pay little attention to him, other than his dangerous posts.

[SunEagle]

I've maintained several mountain top radio and microwave site run solely on batteries and solar. They all have had the batteries last 10 years or more even though the sites are unheated. They are located in the California Sierras as high as 8000. I load test them every 3 years to confirm their capacity and condition. Other than topping some pine trees, they are maintenance free. Just saying that in the real world, solar charging works.

What is the battery make and model used in those mountain top systems?

And also please describe the system size; battery voltage & Ah, pv wattage and CC. Thanks

[skipro3]

What is the battery make and model used in those mountain top systems?

And also please describe the system size; battery voltage & Ah, pv wattage and CC. Thanks

I will have to pull up that data from my records and may take a while. None are under 4000ah capacity, some at 12 volt and up to a -48 vdc. Most are 2volt jars with at least 2 strings for the battery banks. PV panels are the peel-n-stick style on a raised ridge metal roof and uninsulated cinder block walls and concrete slab. Loads are fairly small as I set up the radios to "sleep" with o e radio that is used to wake them up when needed. Also, the capacity can operate the sites for up to two weeks with no Sun in case of storms and snow loading. In a few cases, snow depths have surpassed the roof ridges with wind drifts of over 20 feet. When that happens, I have to helicopter or an Oscar in with a generator to charge them back up, a couple days or more.

[SunEagle]

I will have to pull up that data from my records and may take a while. None are under 4000ah capacity, some at 12 volt and up to a -48 vdc. Most are 2volt jars with at least 2 strings for the battery banks. PV panels are the peel-n-stick style on a raised ridge metal roof and uninsulated cinder block walls and concrete slab. Loads are fairly small as I set up the radios to "sleep" with o e radio that is used to wake them up when needed. Also, the capacity can operate the sites for up to two weeks with no Sun in case of storms and snow loading. In a few cases, snow depths have surpassed the roof ridges with wind drifts of over 20 feet. When that happens, I have to helicopter or an Oscar in with a generator to charge them back up, a couple days or more.

Wow. Yours is the first time I have seen anyone claim 10 years for the peel n stick type pv panels. But I would presume that the colder temperatures at the site is what has made them last as long as they have. Most die from over heating.

It makes sense that the batteries are over sized so you have a smaller DOD% which can extend their life. Unfortunately most people want to keep costs down so they try to size their batteries system on a daily 50% DOD. That will make it very hard to get the manufactures posted lifespan let alone 10 years.

Thanks for the info.

[Willy T]

It is true that oversizing the bank can extend the life, but it also depends on the amount of capacity your system can still function with and meet it's design requirements. While the Industry specification may say a bank is done at 70-80% capacity some applications can drop lower. Some solar users will be able to get by with 50% capacity. Generally when you can't make it through the night and the Generator gas consumption gets out of hand, it's time for a new bank.

[skipro3]

Wow. Yours is the first time I have seen anyone claim 10 years for the peel n stick type pv panels. But I would presume that the colder temperatures at the site is what has made them last as long as they have. Most die from over heating.

I have no idea what the life expectancy is of this type solar panel. The engineer spec'd them because we didn't want ice build up under the panels to cause any damage and that the sites are accessible from recreationalists who would want to try and steal traditional panels. At some of the smaller sites; stream gauging stations, snow pack stations, weather/rain gauge sites, where I have maybe 200ah of capacity, I put the solar panel at the top of a tree to hide it with the conduit painted to camo it out. Even then, folks sometimes see them and either shoot them, or cut the tree down to steal the panel. Of course, a panel in a 85' tall tree doesn't survive a trip to the ground from a felled tree, but thieves don't consider that until after.

The panels have had a very minor amount of adhesive release along side edges in some cases that gets repaired during annual inspections. Sometimes the panel will migrate down the roof and tear out the wire attachment points, which I think is caused by the adhesive loosing it's grip when heated by the sun.

As far as the battery bank lasting 10 years, it amazes me. My instrumentation shows the internal temps on the building get plenty cold enough that the cells should probably freeze. The building has soffet vents to keep condensation down, but in heavy winds, will drift snow into the building. I've gone in and found drifts of snow inside the building from those little vents weeks after a storm, so I know it stays pretty darn cold in there. I've also had to shovel down as much as 20' to reach the door to access the building. (I told the engineer to give me a gable end access hatch so I wouldn't have to dig so deep, but they never listen.)

I'll dig up that data and photos of the facility if you think either are going to be useful. I'm not sure my commercial application is going to pertain much to a residential one though.

One thing I've had issues with on my batteries; the plastic cases sometimes crack. Even though these are starved electrolyte, they do leak a bit when cracked. Some are 300 pound cells, not easy to rack out and change!

Hey, here's a tip on batteries that I use on my sites that have the conventional 12v deep cycle style FLA's. I top off each cell with a bit of mineral oil. Baby oil to be specific. The oil acts like a moisture barrier. When the battery gasses, it warms enough to vent the water from the electrolyte. The oil traps that moisture in and still allows the gas to escape. Where I used to have to check levels often, I now check once a year and usually only have to add every 3 years or so. You may want to give that a try. Not much oil; maybe a quarter inch floated on top of the acid is all.

[SunEagle]

I have no idea what the life expectancy is of this type solar panel. The engineer spec'd them because we didn't want ice build up under the panels to cause any damage and that the sites are accessible from recreationalists who would want to try and steal traditional panels. At some of the smaller sites; stream gauging stations, snow pack stations, weather/rain gauge sites, where I have maybe 200ah of capacity, I put the solar panel at the top of a tree to hide it with the conduit painted to camo it out. Even then, folks sometimes see them and either shoot them, or cut the tree down to steal the panel. Of course, a panel in a 85' tall tree doesn't survive a trip to the ground from a felled tree, but thieves don't consider that until after.

The panels have had a very minor amount of adhesive release along side edges in some cases that gets repaired during annual inspections. Sometimes the panel will migrate down the roof and tear out the wire attachment points, which I think is caused by the adhesive loosing it's grip when heated by the sun.

As far as the battery bank lasting 10 years, it amazes me. My instrumentation shows the internal temps on the building get plenty cold enough that the cells should probably freeze. The building has soffet vents to keep condensation down, but in heavy winds, will drift snow into the building. I've gone in and found drifts of snow inside the building from those little vents weeks after a storm, so I know it stays pretty darn cold in there. I've also had to shovel down as much as 20' to reach the door to access the building. (I told the engineer to give me a gable end access hatch so I wouldn't have to dig so deep, but they never listen.)

I'll dig up that data and photos of the facility if you think either are going to be useful. I'm not sure my commercial application is going to pertain much to a residential one though.

One thing I've had issues with on my batteries; the plastic cases sometimes crack. Even though these are starved electrolyte, they do leak a bit when cracked. Some are 300 pound cells, not easy to rack out and change!

Hey, here's a tip on batteries that I use on my sites that have the conventional 12v deep cycle style FLA's. I top off each cell with a bit of mineral oil. Baby oil to be specific. The oil acts like a moisture barrier. When the battery gasses, it warms enough to vent the water from the electrolyte. The oil traps that moisture in and still allows the gas to escape. Where I used to have to check levels often, I now check once a year and usually only have to add every 3 years or so. You may want to give that a try. Not much oil; maybe a quarter inch floated on top of the acid is all.

Most of those peel and stick solar panels died early deaths due to not being able to stay cool. Being stuck to the surface of a metal roof just got them too hot. Most of the manufacturers have close up shop by now. I believe the cold temperatures helped prolong the ones you used.

That sounds like a neat trick with the baby oil. I guess the oil being "baby safe" doesn't have any impurities for the battery acid to work on.

How often did you perform an EQ charge on the batteries?

If getting photos is a problem don't worry about it. I was just curious about your installation and the longevity of the panels

[Sunking]

Where I disagree with Sunking is he makes these statements that a novice battery user could try and end up with a situation with thermal runaway or fire and end up killing themselves

You are still a Hack. I am telling people how professionals operate their batteries. Telephone, Cellular, Data, Electric Utilities, and Communication Centers do not use or rely on Manufactures Recommended Settings. You can't because it is too broad and general. Example EQ at 2.5 to 2.6 vpc for 12 hours. Float at 2.35 to 2.45 volts. That tells you NOTHING. just like Willy. Professionals use Tempurture Compensation so Thermal Runaway is not an issue, and use Temperature Compensation Hydrometers to set the voltage so the batteries are at 100% SOC per Specific Gravity. Pros don't put much weight on actual battery voltages because it does not tell you anything about SOC.

Here is the deal. Only a very small percentage of the public has there battery charge voltages set correctly, roughly less than 2%. 95% of you are chronic Under Chargers. 2% have it right, and 2 to 3 percent are on the over charge side. The batteries that will last the longest is are those that get to 100% every day without fail. Next in longevity is the over chargers as long as they do not go too far over the edge. The other 95% of you suffer pre-mature battery failure because your batteries are chronically under charged their short service life. Pb batteries do not tolerate PSOC operation very well. If your batteries never reach 100% in a timely manner of a few short hours. You cannot dissolve the lead sulfate crystals that build up when the battery is less than 100%. They keep building up and will harden up which is permanent damage and accumulative. That is one reason why Telecom batteries can last up to 40 years, and why yours dies in 2 years.

Myself personally I do not care one little bit what you do to your batteries. There is only one way for you to determine if a FLA battery is fully charged up or not, and that is with a properly calibrateed Tempurture Hydrometer. They cost less than $10 and will double the life of your batteries if used correctly. All you guys have to do is learn how to use it, use it at least weekly as part of your normal maintenance routine, and make your adjustments accordingly. Or you can join Willy and stick your head in the sand and pretend to know what you are doing.

---Mod Note. That's better.