Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Max Smoke charging model

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Max Smoke charging model

    As referenced here : http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Your-Batteries

    I am after some corroborating evidence from a manufacturer that supports this idea. It makes logical sense in that yea, you dont have that much sun during the day to charge the batteries. But what about the longevity of the battery with this charging scheme? Forcing current into a battery like this from what i have read can cause damage, and i cant find any reference on the internet to the manufacturers revised plans for charging with solar.

    So its either damage due to undercharge because of not enough time for absorption charge, or damage due to the localised gassing and heating of forcing what is basically an equalisation charge every day, which is bad as far as i know.

    Equalization charges arent done very often for this exact reason, yet in that article, you are basically equalize charging every day? Or is that point where you have to wind the voltage back as soon as gassing starts?

    Is gassing that bad? (researching battery watering systems)
    Or is gassing the symptom of something else worse?

    Cheers!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Rainwulf View Post
    So its either damage due to undercharge because of not enough time for absorption charge, or damage due to the localised gassing and heating of forcing what is basically an equalisation charge every day, which is bad as far as i know.
    Well, just be sure when talking voltages, to keep in mind the difference between FLA and AGM. But basically the point is that instead of say a monthly EQ for an fla, do it in a *controlled* manner daily instead. I'll let the FLA guys comment more on that.

    For many AGM's, we can never do an EQ as you would with fla, but instead run with higher daily voltages, and not letting the float charge setting come on too soon - or no float at all. In this case, an agm doesn't undergo an EQ as one would normally think of it with fla - the voltages are different for one thing and the term EQ (such as running 15.5v) may not be applicable. In an agm's case, merely maintaining absorb at the higher end of the spec range would be called "conditioning".

    Essentially, we are picking between two evils - and the natural inclination to be too conservative and prematurely sulfate the battery. In the AGM world, we are choosing between slight sulfation "walk down" in capacity, vs corrosion from exposure to higher voltages for longer periods of time (within manufacturer's specs of course).

    I don't know about FLA, but in the agm world it goes like this: "It is better to slightly OVERcharge, than to UNDERcharge". Note the word *slightly*. This means that for most purposes, merely allowing a battery undergoing CYCLIC use to just stay in absorb until the sun sets. In many cases, you may not even reach absorb, or may just start to enter it when you lose the sun. With a non-stable source like solar, this type of use with max-smoke averages out to be similar to what manufacturers call for when using stable AC source charging.

    I can say one thing - doing this max-smoke thing means not using cheap batteries, or a bank that is starting out in a badly balanced condition. This can even apply to supposedly new single batteries, where the individual cells have not had a chance to undergo say 5 or more normal cycles to help "balance" (yes, this is a misnomer for now) the new cells initially. On the small-scale, I cheat by using an Optimate 6 charger to help me get to that stage when buying new, before doing the max-smoke technique via solar.

    It sounds like you are using FLA, so I'll call upon those guys to guide you further.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Rainwulf View Post
      Equalization charges arent done very often for this exact reason, yet in that article, you are basically equalize charging every day?
      You will never likely ever reach gassing voltage on a SOFT ARSE SOLAR SYSTEM. On the charge side the two dangers are charging too fast and too high of a voltage. With Solar, unless your panels are way over sized, ridiculous amounts of Sun Hours, or rarely used, a solar system cannot over charge your batteries.

      Plenty of evidence in manufactures literature about the changes, the recommended voltages went up from a few short years ago.. For example Trojan abandoned 3-Stage charging for RE or daily cycling using Bulk = 2.4, Absorb = 2.35, and Float = 2.25 to just a Daily Charge = 2.46 volts per cell or 14.8 on a 12 volt battery. EQ is 2.6 vpc or 15.6 volts and 14.8 is not EQ voltsLook for yourself. 3-Stage charging is not possible on solar, it is too damn slow, and an EQ charge is impossible on Solar

      But the real proof is what you have likely never done and the proof you are looking for is your temperature corrected hydrometer Speeciffic Gravity. If you had ever used a hydrometer, you would know your batteries are chronically under charged. Trust me if you use the word CHEERS, your batteries are under charged.
      MSEE, PE

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
        I can say one thing - doing this max-smoke thing means not using cheap batteries, or a bank that is starting out in a badly balanced condition. This can even apply to supposedly new single batteries, where the individual cells have not had a chance to undergo say 5 or more normal cycles to help "balance"
        Sorry PN that is incorrect. Very first thing you do to any new FLA, AGM, or Gel is a good ole fashion monster of an EQ Charge. It has a few different names depending on what manufacture wee are talking about. Activation, Refresh, Freshening Charge, Initial Charge, Forming Charge, etc...

        From Trojan:

        1. When do I need to perform an equalization charge?
        Equalizing should be performed when a battery is first purchased (called a freshening charge) and on a regular basis as needed. How often this might occur with your battery will vary depending on your application. You will need to monitor your battery voltage and specific gravity to determine when equalization is needed. For example, it is time to equalize if the measured specific gravity values are below manufacturer’s recommended values after charging (recommended value for Trojan Deep Cycle batteries is 1.285 +/- .007 at 80º F (27º C)). Equalizing is also required if the specific gravity value of any individual cell varies 30 points or more. In addition, reduced performance can also be an indicator that equalizing is necessary. Equalization should be performed when individual battery voltages in a battery pack range greater than 0.15 volts for 6-volt batteries or 0.30 volts for 12-volt batteries.

        Rolls has you crank it up to 2.65 vpc to what they call an Activation Charge and charged until the SG maxes and equalizes.

        Pb batteries is a Balancing Act on a knife edge. Fall of the Left Side (under charged) into the Sulfate Pool where 95% of all batteries DIE Prematurely. Or fall off the Right Side (over charged) into the Corrosion side of the pool. Unfortunately with Solar you have no choice but to swim on the Sulfate side of the pool in chronic under-charged lands of no return to an early death. All you can do is milk every last little watt hour the panels can produce to store away. You are still under charged, just not as deeply minimizing damage.
        MSEE, PE

        Comment


        • #5
          I knew you would say it better than I would - I tangle my own words sometimes.

          Totally agree with you there.

          I think what I was really trying to say was not to proclaim the max-smoke model invalid if you have issues, when the real problem is using some cheap-ass general purpose agm that has been sitting around in dealer inventory for 4 years and one or more cells has differing levels of hard sulfation to begin with.

          What I found too that it wasn't even a case of knife-edge if one is using reasonably quality gear.

          I think the simplicity of the max-smoke model in a cyclic solar environment scares people. It can't be that simple can it? Yes it is!

          Comment


          • #6
            Well I am not going there,

            My batteries are generally in float of 27v by 10am and gas freely at that.

            I need to add at least one litre of water most weeks as it is.

            I think charge voltages are just another thing that needs to be tuned depending on system setup, usage and climate.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bala View Post
              Well I am not going there,

              My batteries are generally in float of 27v by 10am and gas freely at that.

              I need to add at least one litre of water most weeks as it is.

              I think charge voltages are just another thing that needs to be tuned depending on system setup, usage and climate.
              Bala what I think you and others are missing the whole point. If you are adding water once a week tells me you are way over charging your batteries. Thee point I am making is voltage SET POINT is meaningless. It takes whatever it takes to get the battery fully charged. You do not use voltage to measure that, you use a TEMPERATURE Compensated Hydrometer. A properly designed system in the summer time can be over sized, and thus you would have to lower Voltage Set Points because the panels can keep up. In winter there is likely no voltage set point high enough. You force your controller to stay in CC mode all day to sunset. At the end of the day, you are still not fully charged up. Setting the controller voltage to a lower set point only compounds the problem and makes it worse.

              So my point is use your HYDROMETER to set your voltage. It is the only way to get it right on a solar system. Does not apply to an AC charger because time and power is unlimited. You do not have that luxury with Solar. Your panels only have a very limited amount of power they can supply, in a very short period of time of a few hours. 95% of the folks who come here with off-grid come here asking what is wrong and why their batteries do not last. The answer is always the same, Chronic Under Charging. That is why Battery Manufactures have changed their charging recommendations.

              So Bala if you are adding water once a week is a dead give away you are over charging. You are one of the rare ones with an over sized system. Bet you if you used a hydrometer you would see the SG running high and know to back off the voltage a bit. Catch is it is a never ending job and should be part of your weekly PM routine adjusting voltages for changing conditions. As days get longer, you should be lowering voltage a bit in a properly sized system, and as days get shorter you start raising the voltage. If not, well all I can say is get use to premature battery failure like 95% of the public accepts. You appear to be OK with that, and battery manufactures like it that way, but not me.
              MSEE, PE

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm just about to start work so will get back with more tonight but for now I have 9.5 years inservice

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                  You will never likely ever reach gassing voltage on a SOFT ARSE SOLAR SYSTEM. On the charge side the two dangers are charging too fast and too high of a voltage. With Solar, unless your panels are way over sized, ridiculous amounts of Sun Hours, or rarely used, a solar system cannot over charge your batteries.

                  Plenty of evidence in manufactures literature about the changes, the recommended voltages went up from a few short years ago.. For example Trojan abandoned 3-Stage charging for RE or daily cycling using Bulk = 2.4, Absorb = 2.35, and Float = 2.25 to just a Daily Charge = 2.46 volts per cell or 14.8 on a 12 volt battery. EQ is 2.6 vpc or 15.6 volts and 14.8 is not EQ voltsLook for yourself. 3-Stage charging is not possible on solar, it is too damn slow, and an EQ charge is impossible on Solar

                  But the real proof is what you have likely never done and the proof you are looking for is your temperature corrected hydrometer Speeciffic Gravity. If you had ever used a hydrometer, you would know your batteries are chronically under charged. Trust me if you use the word CHEERS, your batteries are under charged.
                  You are a bit of a jerk aren't you. I said i was new the forums but not new to solar.

                  What soft arse solar system are you talking about?
                  You say "And the real proof is that i have never used a hydrometer", yet.. in another post i even show you a picture of me using them in my so called GEL batteries, which aren't, and because i used the word cheers? Wow. You are a bit of an ass aren't you. The all knowing Sunking doesn't even bother reading threads. Here it is again, since you obviously dismissed my last thread because of your expertise in GEL batteries, and because I'm australian.


                  EQ Charging impossible on solar? What the hell are you talking about. What kind of weak ass solar system cant do equalisation? Maybe get of your high horse and actually help people instead of insulting them and their own experience, and maybe even READ their posts. It would help you.

                  Like Bala is experiencing, we get a LOT of sun here in northern Australia, and if your solar system isnt able to gas your batteries, you have something seriously wrong.

                  At 8am this very morning i am getting over 650 watts of charge.
                  In fact, with my constant load of 7.8 amps, i reached parity with solar at about 7 am.

                  Date/time Panel Int.Bat Current Watts Temp External Bat
                  2015-09-28 07:06:36 38.8 24.96 8.05 200.0 25.0 24.92
                  2015-09-28 07:06:06 37.8 24.96 8.11 200.0 25.0 24.92
                  2015-09-28 07:05:35 39.1 24.96 7.93 199.0 25.0 24.92
                  2015-09-28 07:05:08 35.1 24.92 7.58 190.0 25.0 24.92
                  2015-09-28 07:04:37 37.1 24.92 7.87 197.0 25.0 24.92
                  2015-09-28 07:04:07 38.8 24.92 7.87 197.0 25.0 24.92
                  2015-09-28 07:03:37 40.1 24.92 7.7 191.0 25.0 24.92
                  2015-09-28 07:03:07 41.5 24.92 7.52 187.0 25.0 24.92
                  2015-09-28 07:02:37 37.0 24.92 7.64 190.0 25.0 24.92


                  And this is 8:13am.
                  2015-09-28 08:14:45 53.4 26.81 29.76 797.0 33.0 26.52

                  800 watts of power at 8:15 am is pretty damn good and not weak arse dont you think Sunking? I get 1760 watts in the midday sun.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rainwulf View Post
                    You are a bit of a jerk aren't you. Maybe get of your high horse and actually help people instead of insulting them and their own experience, and maybe even READ their posts.
                    Dereck has been extremely helpful to me. I always set my force field to "Klingon" when using the internet, and everything works like a charm. I believe there is also a product called Thick Skin in a Bottle, which is available regionally.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Living Large View Post
                      Dereck has been extremely helpful to me. I always set my force field to "Klingon" when using the internet, and everything works like a charm. I believe there is also a product called Thick Skin in a Bottle, which is available regionally.
                      Oh im all good for that, its just that i fail to see how saying cheers means 1, my batteries are ****, 2, i cant use a hydrometer, and 3, i have a weak arse solar system.
                      How does that actually help anyone? Whats the use of posting in a forum if all you do is insult people?
                      He didnt even bother to read my posts, or even look at the picture.

                      Living Large, has being insulted been helpful to you?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Let's keep this thread on topic instead of digressing into analysis of members online personalities.
                        If you feel that the advice was not good, that is a valid topic but keep it on that level.
                        SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I can work with that, as long as i can say Cheers and not be dismissed as some lunatic who can't tell the difference between gel and flooded

                          On topic, my solar array is pushing in 1.5kw at 9:32 am, with a bank voltage of 27.79 (13.9 volts a battery)
                          At this rate i will hit absorption at around midday.

                          Since i can actually get the power into the batteries on time, should i stay with the "AC Charger" recommended charging profile? or stick with getting in power as quick as i can.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bala View Post
                            I'm just about to start work so will get back with more tonight but for now I have 9.5 years inservice
                            I don't doubt that one bit. I think you are one of the smart 5% crowd. All I am suggesting is since you have confirmed your system is Over Sized, you might look at relaxing voltages. You have confirmed over charge when you said you are at Float by 10:00 am, and adding water every week. You are one of the few rare people who system size is adequate. As you said you have to tune it in. My bet is just a Single Stage Float. No stages just a Constant Voltage. aka Float Charge.
                            MSEE, PE

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rainwulf View Post
                              Oh im all good for that, its just that i fail to see how saying cheers means 1, my batteries are ****,
                              No it is called Humor which you lack. Cheers is usually a term a Brit uses, and there is little Sun to be had in Britain for solar. But your hydrometer is a POS if that makes you feel better. It makes me feel better.

                              I bet you are not laughing again.

                              The point you are missing is: Only your Temp Compensated Hydrometer will tell you what the right voltage set point it. For most folks who have undersized systems there is no voltage high enough, especially in shorter day light months. The hydrometer you have pictured is not capable of telling you much other Good-Bad, and Ugly. Get a good one and use it to set your voltage. Right now you are just pissing in the wind blindly because otherwise you would know. Don't use Voltage.
                              MSEE, PE

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X