HOA Approval

[jrw]

Looking for advice (pros/cons) on bypassing my HOA that wants to take 45 days to review and approve my solar plans. My solar company is ready to install and the design plans have been approved by the city. HOA says that they still need 45 days to review the plans prior to beginning installation.

What are the pitfalls for ignoring the HOA and going ahead with the install before approval? Do I need to delay for 45 days to see if they give approval? Many other homes in this So Cal community have solar panels already and my install is straight forward with regards to the placement and the types of panels that will be installed.

[DanKegel]

Sounds risky to ignore them.

In California, http://www.gosolarcalifornia.ca.gov/...ics/rights.php might have something to say about hoa's and solar.

[Mike90250]

Welcome JRW.
If you have never run afoul of your HOA, for the wrong flowers planted, leaving your drapes open/closed or for having a car that does not match the neighborhood theme, you DONT want to put up $30K of panels and get into a major legal fight because the mounting bolts are the wrong color.
You and your contractor better plan on waiting the 45 days AND making some changes. Talk to the other homeowners who installed PV, and see what their story is.

While the HOA cannot prohibit a PV install, they can force the style and location (north roof, under a tree)

[J.P.M.]

Looking for advice (pros/cons) on bypassing my HOA that wants to take 45 days to review and approve my solar plans. My solar company is ready to install and the design plans have been approved by the city. HOA says that they still need 45 days to review the plans prior to beginning installation.

What are the pitfalls for ignoring the HOA and going ahead with the install before approval? Do I need to delay for 45 days to see if they give approval? Many other homes in this So Cal community have solar panels already and my install is straight forward with regards to the placement and the types of panels that will be installed.

I'm the guy on my HOA that reviews all the solar installations in my HOA, and recommends disposition to the Arch. Rev. Comm. for their review/consideration. 72 installs so far and counting.

Some things to consider at this point, in CA anyway:

- HOA's do have the right to review and approve solar installations.
- HOA's do have 45 days from date of application to review.
- HOA's can cause changes in the system, but ONLY to the extent that such changes do not increase the system cost by more than $1,000, or reduce performance by more than 10%. How those limits are determined is somewhat murky at this time.
- HOA's must treat all solar installations the same with respect to review and approval as any other home improvement requiring HOA review and approval.

The consequences of ignoring the HOA can be not pretty. Sounds like you did the ready, fire, aim thing as far as approval is concerned. Depending on how the HOA handles violations of the CC & R's, including with respect to not following the approval process for home improvement projects, the HOA can, among many other things, send you a notice advising you to stop work. If you ignore that, the HOA can try to get an injunction to stop work or have the work removed until approval is obtained. That probably won't happen, but it could. Even if they don't try to force removal, the potential hassle, B.S. and lost time you are exposing yourself to may surprise you.

It may be helpful to look at it from the HOA's side. If the HOA digs in their heels, as they must if they are not going to set a precedent by allowing an unapproved installation to exist, and in so doing severely hamper any future efforts at maintaining credibility, and also avoid possible lawsuits for malfeasance from other residents with solar who did follow the rules and were forced to modify, or from residents who just don't like solar, or something else, your actions may well put the HOA in a box where they have no choice but to do things you will not like and will cost you money, time and hassle.

As a practical matter, courts generally side w/the HOA in matters where they (the HOA's) are following the law and the CC & R's, and are ignored by the homeowner. Loser pays arbitration/court costs.

Your choice. IMO, it's a whole lot easier to simply follow the rules you signed on for when you bought into an HOA. FWIW: The vendor is probably quite aware that you are in an HOA and approval is required.

See the Solar Rights Act and recent case law with respect to what the law says.

[Living Large]

What are the pitfalls for ignoring the HOA and going ahead with the install before approval? Do I need to delay for 45 days to see if they give approval? Many other homes in this So Cal community have solar panels already and my install is straight forward with regards to the placement and the types of panels that will be installed.

Can you explain for the reader why you would consider doing such a thing? It sounds incredibly risky and likely to cause a lot grief. Can it possibly be worth it?

[Sunking]

You are asking for a fight you cannot win.

[foo1bar]

Looking for advice (pros/cons) on bypassing my HOA

As others have said - it's simple - Don't.
And delaying a month is a whole $200? $300? of electric bills?

If your installer is pressuring you, tell the installer you don't have HOA approval. But if he's willing to pay any court costs and/or changes needed, you're fine with him taking all that responsibility.

HOA says that they still need 45 days to review the plans prior to beginning installation.

Well - sounds like they legally get up to 45 days to review it.
But they *could* approve it earlier - and you could ask nicely about what is the earliest that can happen.
ie. "So can you explain to me what the approval process is? Is there a committee it goes to or something? And when do they meet? I'd be happy to attend the meeting so I can answer any questions they have."

[jrw]

Thank you!

As others have said - it's simple - Don't.
And delaying a month is a whole $200? $300? of electric bills?

If your installer is pressuring you, tell the installer you don't have HOA approval. But if he's willing to pay any court costs and/or changes needed, you're fine with him taking all that responsibility.


Well - sounds like they legally get up to 45 days to review it.
But they *could* approve it earlier - and you could ask nicely about what is the earliest that can happen.
ie. "So can you explain to me what the approval process is? Is there a committee it goes to or something? And when do they meet? I'd be happy to attend the meeting so I can answer any questions they have."

Great feedback from all! Thank you for clarifying this issue. I had previously received some incomplete advice and I'm glad I asked before making the wrong decision.

[Panelmal]

Install a flag pole, run the confederate flag up it then give the installer the go ahead, no one will notice the panels. Just make sure it doesn't cause a shading issue.

[Andy D]

By all means follow the rules such as the 45 day wait. Not doing so gives them leverage.

However truth be known in California, there's not much they can do to alter the plan anymore. It used to be $2000/20% hardship but as of January 2015 that changed to $1000/10%.

Another trick. TV antennas and satellite dishes have FEDERAL laws exempting HOA restrictions*. If your board gets sassy, tell them you will buy the biggest TV antenna the FCC rules allow and put it 11', 11" above your roof and there's not a damn thing they can do about it! You have the right to free OTA TV reception. They cannot force you to use cable.

*It must be your own house. MFD Condo's get tricky because of roof rights.

[J.P.M.]

By all means follow the rules such as the 45 day wait. Not doing so gives them leverage.

However truth be known in California, there's not much they can do to alter the plan anymore. It used to be $2000/20% hardship but as of January 2015 that changed to $1000/10%.

Another trick. TV antennas and satellite dishes have FEDERAL laws exempting HOA restrictions*. If your board gets sassy, tell them you will buy the biggest TV antenna the FCC rules allow and put it 11', 11" above your roof and there's not a damn thing they can do about it! You have the right to free OTA TV reception. They cannot force you to use cable.

*It must be your own house. MFD Condo's get tricky because of roof rights.

Sounds sort of like that could wind up being a Pyrrhic victory of sorts, depending on things like price, maint. and individual opinions about how structures of that size and type are viewed in an aesthetic sense.

Seems easier to get the HOA on your side rather than unnecessarily stick a finger in their eye. Being on both sides and somewhat familiar with similar situations, I'm of the opinion the HOA holds all the high cards. Your way will get a possible eyesore and a higher likelihood that your solar install will take a long time and wind up costing pretty close to $1K more, one way or the other, after a fairly long arbitration process. I'm not sure what case law says about allowable things done for possibly spiteful reasons, but it might be an interesting case if it has not yet been adjudicated. But, that's just one opinion.

[Andy D]

Sounds sort of like that could wind up being a Pyrrhic victory of sorts, depending on things like price, maint. and individual opinions about how structures of that size and type are viewed in an aesthetic sense.

Seems easier to get the HOA on your side rather than unnecessarily stick a finger in their eye. Being on both sides and somewhat familiar with similar situations, I'm of the opinion the HOA holds all the high cards. Your way will get a possible eyesore and a higher likelihood that your solar install will take a long time and wind up costing pretty close to $1K more, one way or the other, after a fairly long arbitration process. I'm not sure what case law says about allowable things done for possibly spiteful reasons, but it might be an interesting case if it has not yet been adjudicated. But, that's just one opinion.

Well this being the solar forum, I should point out that the TV antenna laws are far more defined than the solar panel laws. Unlike the state governed solar panel restriction rules, the antenna laws are an act of congress, the Telecommunications act of 1996. There have been numerous challenges over the years by HOA's and they always end up in the home owners favor. The only caveat is condos and MFD's.

And the state laws regarding solar panels. at least in California, limit the hoops the HOA can make you jump through. And expect these laws to get only tighter with perhaps federal laws being adopted in a few years. Being anti-alternate energy based on appearances is not politically correct these days - IOW, bad press for the HOA management.

Again I agree with following the laws in your state for solar installations. Buy I for one don't subscribe to this idea that the all mighty HOA is to be blindly obeyed to spite overriding law. You can make their lives just as difficult as they can make yours. It's done in the business world every day. "You want that antenna off my roof, then adopt my solar plans per state law - NOW". Of course you never put this in writing but rather a casual conversation with the HOA president at the local coffee shop.

I guess it boils down to personality, some of us actually enjoy the fight when it comes to this BS!

P.S. My front lawn (in fact entire lawn) is almost dead now. My CC&R's state fines can be levied if the yards are not maintained. Let's just see if they dare fine me or anybody for a bad lawn under the California government mandated watering restrictions! I'd love to see such a case go to court.

[J.P.M.]

Well this being the solar forum, I should point out that the TV antenna laws are far more defined than the solar panel laws. Unlike the state governed solar panel restriction rules, the antenna laws are an act of congress, the Telecommunications act of 1996. There have been numerous challenges over the years by HOA's and they always end up in the home owners favor. The only caveat is condos and MFD's.

And the state laws regarding solar panels. at least in California, limit the hoops the HOA can make you jump through. And expect these laws to get only tighter with perhaps federal laws being adopted in a few years. Being anti-alternate energy based on appearances is not politically correct these days - IOW, bad press for the HOA management.

Again I agree with following the laws in your state for solar installations. Buy I for one don't subscribe to this idea that the all mighty HOA is to be blindly obeyed to spite overriding law. You can make their lives just as difficult as they can make yours. It's done in the business world every day. "You want that antenna off my roof, then adopt my solar plans per state law - NOW". Of course you never put this in writing but rather a casual conversation with the HOA president at the local coffee shop.

I guess it boils down to personality, some of us actually enjoy the fight when it comes to this BS!

P.S. My front lawn (in fact entire lawn) is almost dead now. My CC&R's state fines can be levied if the yards are not maintained. Let's just see if they dare fine me or anybody for a bad lawn under the California government mandated watering restrictions! I'd love to see such a case go to court.

That's true, you're absolutely right. Whatever you say. Do as you see best and hail the independence. BTW: If you don't already know, HOA's in CA cannot forbid xeriscaping, or low water use planting(s). Try that if they give you B.S.

[Andy D]

That's true, you're absolutely right. Whatever you say. Do as you see best and hail the independence. BTW: If you don't already know, HOA's in CA cannot forbid xeriscaping, or low water use planting(s). Try that if they give you B.S.

No, I have no problem with following laws and covenants I signed up for. But I am also one of those people who has zero tolerance for "neighborhood nanny's".

[Mike90250]

.... I am also one of those people who has zero tolerance for "neighborhood nanny's".

Me too, and I chose not to live in a HOA.