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Tesla Powerwall, The Specs, Numbers, and Implementation Absolutely Brilliant

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  • #31
    'Tax Credits' are one thing.

    'Tax write-offs' are a different thing.

    We have been using the costs of going off-grid as tax write-offs.
    4400w, Midnite Classic 150 charge-controller.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
      Well worth the price, and I doubt your neighbors will not pay one penny for your system. Stand Alone Battery systems do not qualify last time I checked.
      Sunking - I think you may be mistaken...battery systems do qualify (but there are limitations) according to the IRS.

      http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/...es-limitations

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      • #33
        Originally posted by RoadGlide View Post
        Sunking - I think you may be mistaken...battery systems do qualify (but there are limitations) according to the IRS.

        http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/...es-limitations
        Did you read it? Dual use like solar and grid connected. That would be a hybrid system.
        MSEE, PE

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        • #34
          Originally posted by RoadGlide View Post
          Sunking - I think you may be mistaken...battery systems do qualify (but there are limitations) according to the IRS.

          http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/...es-limitations
          The system in that article is still connected to the grid but I believe you are right that off-grid systems qualify for the tax credit.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sunking View Post
            Did you read it? Dual use like solar and grid connected. That would be a hybrid system.
            You are mistaken about off-grid system tax credit eligibility:

            Federal Tax Credit

            Amount: 30% of system cost, including all equipment, materials and installation costs
            Maximum Incentive: There is no maximum credit for systems placed in service after 2008.
            Qualifying Installations: Both grid-tied and off-grid solar and wind systems apply. The home served by the system does not have to be the taxpayer’s principal residence.
            My emphasis.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Sunking View Post
              Did you read it? Dual use like solar and grid connected. That would be a hybrid system.
              Yes I did. What is your point? I'm not assuming a credit on the battery's just the actual array and the ancillary equipment which I can get under current regulations.

              To be sure - am fairly certain I can get a credit for the whole shebang - that would be icing on the cake. If not I'm still ahead of the game. Calling yourself a Solar Fanatic while bashing Solar just doesn't make sense.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Ian S View Post
                I stand corrected.
                MSEE, PE

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by bberry View Post
                  Or pull out the iphone and press the "GEN" button.
                  There's not a lot of off grid being built in California that can't easily run an electric kettle or toaster without the generator.
                  I have seen articles in magazines on systems where people say they have x system running a lot of stuff.

                  Yes systems will generally run almost whatever you want,

                  I could run a lot more off my batteries at night but then they would not likely still be in good order after almost 9 years of service.

                  The claims are really meaningless IMHO as we have no idea how long the batteries last.

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                  • #39
                    The Tesla brand is more readily associated with mobility than with staying at home. However, the manufacturer is now bringing its battery technology to the market for stationary power storage. Together with the inverter manufacturer Fronius, the Californian company is going to be marketing the Tesla Home Battery in Germany and Europe starting in the fourth quarter of 2015.
                    The move is a response by the partners to the growing interest in electricity storage systems that significantly improve the availability of solar power for own-consumption. The storage technology, which is already used in electric vehicles, will now be combined with inverter and smart meter technology from Fronius. The inverter that will be used is the Fronius Symo Hybrid, which also supports the Fronius Solar Battery already on the market. The Tesla Home Battery will also be suitable for installation on a wall.
                    Division manager Martin Hackl at Fronius sees the collaboration as a step towards a fully renewable energy supply: "Tesla, a world leader in the field of electric mobility, is an ideal partner on our way towards being able to use solar power twenty-four hours a day." The two companies have already been working together for some time in the automotive business area: Tesla uses Fronius welding systems for manufacturing its S and X models.
                    The combined storage solution from Fronius and Tesla will be available in the fourth quarter, but Tesla has announced that it will already begin selling stationary storage under the name "Tesla Energy" in the USA this summer. The Powerwall storage system is offered with storage capacities of 7 and 10 kWh and is designed for use with solar power and as a backup solution.
                    Ralf Ossenbrink
                    I guess this tells it all and who was right and who was wrong.

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                    • #40
                      RoadGlide you said (way back at beginning)
                      kWh = (Amp x Volts) / 1000
                      Actually, it's Kw x hours - KWh

                      1,000 of anything, is represented as 1K (the K replaces 3 decimal points, M replaces 6 decimal points)

                      So a 700 wh battery is also called a .7Kwh battery.
                      Last edited by Mike90250; 05-09-2015, 03:58 PM.
                      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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                      • #41
                        found this document on SolarEdge's StorEdge solution which seems to be what they are basing their US powerwall solution on.
                        http://gilleleje-solenergi.dk/downlo...ge_21_5_14.pdf

                        It seems to be showing battery optimizers on the second input of the inverter. These optimizers seem to be able to handle different battery sizes and capacities as long as they can chain along up to 350V. It doesn't seem to indicate any grid disconnect device to allow off grid or backup capabilities but that might be done with other equipment.
                        OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
                          found this document on SolarEdge's StorEdge solution which seems to be what they are basing their US powerwall solution on.
                          http://gilleleje-solenergi.dk/downlo...ge_21_5_14.pdf

                          It seems to be showing battery optimizers on the second input of the inverter. These optimizers seem to be able to handle different battery sizes and capacities as long as they can chain along up to 350V. It doesn't seem to indicate any grid disconnect device to allow off grid or backup capabilities but that might be done with other equipment.
                          My guess is that the drawing has been simplified just to show off each major "component" of the "system" and not to be used as a wiring diagram.

                          I have to admit that showing the use of separate DC "optimizers" for each "battery" would be easier to understand then saying they are Li-Ion balance chargers.

                          I wonder what the cost of each of those 2.5kWh battery packs are and what their life expectancy is based on DOD% and cycles.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                            My guess is that the drawing has been simplified just to show off each major "component" of the "system" and not to be used as a wiring diagram.
                            The little note on the right side of page two is interesting:
                            • Extends effective battery capacity & lifetime by mitigating battery mismatch & optimizing depth of discharge per battery
                            • More energy through higher efficiency
                            • Fault tolerance: If one battery malfunctions the others provide additional power to compensate
                            • Safety:
                            • Each battery cell is monitored and the system is shut down in case of a critical battery failure
                            • Batteries connected in series - low output current
                            • Battery pack voltage reduced to low voltage in case of system shutdown
                            • Modular system easily expands in order to accommodate a higher capacity
                            • Serviceability:
                            • Easy pack maintenance in case of battery malfunction
                            • Added/replaced batteries can be of different sizes/types than the original
                            • Based on SolarEdge’s widely-deployed and field-proven DC-DC power optimizers
                            OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
                              The little note on the right side of page two is interesting:
                              • Extends effective battery capacity & lifetime by mitigating battery mismatch & optimizing depth of discharge per battery
                              • More energy through higher efficiency
                              • Fault tolerance: If one battery malfunctions the others provide additional power to compensate
                              • Safety:
                              • Each battery cell is monitored and the system is shut down in case of a critical battery failure
                              • Batteries connected in series - low output current
                              • Battery pack voltage reduced to low voltage in case of system shutdown
                              • Modular system easily expands in order to accommodate a higher capacity
                              • Serviceability:
                              • Easy pack maintenance in case of battery malfunction
                              • Added/replaced batteries can be of different sizes/types than the original
                              • Based on SolarEdge’s widely-deployed and field-proven DC-DC power optimizers
                              It looks like the "battery" may consist of a "maze" of smaller units each one having an individual balance charger. They seem to act as one big battery but may be able to work if one or more have issues.

                              Pretty complicated for most. Any idea on how long these systems have been in service?

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                              • #45
                                Update on battery chemistry:
                                http://fortune.com/2015/05/18/tesla-...ies-chemistry/
                                says

                                Tesla CEO Elon Musk said on the company’s earnings call that Tesla will be using a high energy lithium-ion NCA battery for its new grid battery. Similar to the one it uses in its cars, the grid battery is intended for use by utility companies for back-up power. These are the batteries that, when used in a big battery “farm,” could replace so-called peaker power plants, the “dirty” and expensive power plants that utilities use only when grid demand peaks, such as during a sweltering summer afternoon. (The Tesla website describes this as the back-up battery with a capacity of 10 kilowatt-hours and a price of $3,500.)
                                In contrast, Musk said that Tesla will use a lithium-ion battery with a nickel, manganese, cobalt oxide cathode for its grid battery. Called an NMC battery, it’s meant to be used for daily cycling for a home, business, or certain types of clean power. “There’s quite a lot of manganese in there,” Musk said. (The Tesla website specs for this battery are 7 kWh battery for $3,000.)

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