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  • New to Solar, looking for someone to point me in the right direction

    Nice Forum, way to much to easily digest so I will get to the point.

    New to solar, want to get a system put on my home, I have solarcity coming tomorrow evening to draw things up and make a proposal, problem is that I know nothing about solar, not sure what questions I should even be asking. I know I am not signing anything until I get a bit smarter, Here is what I do know,

    I am going to tie the system to the grid, I use APS, we use a lot of juice, - our monthly equalizer billing with APS is $470 a month. Big Home, dual AC's, big pool, hot tub and RV Plugged in.

    Solar City told me that they offer either a lease or a buy program, supposedly the lease is the minimum out of pocket expense.

    I live in Phx AZ, I have a great southern exposure roof and Deck with easily 1000 sq foot available for panels.

    Not sure what I should even be asking to ensure I do not get screwed over or buy into crap, if anyone could point me at some resources that I should read up on that would be appreciated, yes, I know how to google, but there is a ton of stuff out there, most from dealers and there are tons of different opinions and different systems from DIY to Off grid to hybrid etc,

    All I know is that being in Phx and with my exposure, I probably could be saving some money, just not sure where to start with all these companies.

    Thanks in advance for anyone who has anything to offer. Regards - Brian

  • #2
    Originally posted by BrianO View Post
    Nice Forum, way to much to easily digest so I will get to the point.

    New to solar, want to get a system put on my home, I have solarcity coming tomorrow evening to draw things up and make a proposal, problem is that I know nothing about solar, not sure what questions I should even be asking. I know I am not signing anything until I get a bit smarter, Here is what I do know,

    I am going to tie the system to the grid, I use APS, we use a lot of juice, - our monthly equalizer billing with APS is $470 a month. Big Home, dual AC's, big pool, hot tub and RV Plugged in.

    Solar City told me that they offer either a lease or a buy program, supposedly the lease is the minimum out of pocket expense.

    I live in Phx AZ, I have a great southern exposure roof and Deck with easily 1000 sq foot available for panels.

    Not sure what I should even be asking to ensure I do not get screwed over or buy into crap, if anyone could point me at some resources that I should read up on that would be appreciated, yes, I know how to google, but there is a ton of stuff out there, most from dealers and there are tons of different opinions and different systems from DIY to Off grid to hybrid etc,

    All I know is that being in Phx and with my exposure, I probably could be saving some money, just not sure where to start with all these companies.

    Thanks in advance for anyone who has anything to offer. Regards - Brian
    Since you ask: You're right - so much to learn. Your best defense against screwing yourself or allowing someone else the pleasure is combating your ignorance before you go further with education.

    I'd suggest you not lease or buy anything until you get a lot more information. Before reading posts here, put the horse before the horse, buy or download a solar for dummies book off the net, paying particular attention to the conservation sections.

    THEN, read posts on this forum. Also, know that APS tariffs etc. are changing. Other AZ posters are quite knowledgeable.

    Comment


    • #3
      What if you could get free installation, free maintenance, at locked in low rates?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by solarjunky View Post
        What if you could get free installation, free maintenance, at locked in low rates?
        Not only are you pitching SolarCity every chance you get but you didn't even read the OP's post. They already have an appointment with SC.
        OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

        Comment


        • #5
          Your Right - Clarification

          Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
          Since you ask: You're right - so much to learn. Your best defense against screwing yourself or allowing someone else the pleasure is combating your ignorance before you go further with education.

          I'd suggest you not lease or buy anything until you get a lot more information. Before reading posts here, put the horse before the horse, buy or download a solar for dummies book off the net, paying particular attention to the conservation sections.

          THEN, read posts on this forum. Also, know that APS tariffs etc. are changing. Other AZ posters are quite knowledgeable.
          I agree but do not have time to mess with it, more than happy to get someone to get me up and running, understand the basics, but not sure who to use, what would be considered a good deal, cost per watt and all those terms I see tossed out, buying vs leasing? Obviously DIY Is out of the picture for me, am running 2 businesses and task saturated but it just seems logical to look at solar as a long term investment.

          With solarcity coming out, what questions should I be asking, they supposedly will be giving me some good facts/options, if it turns into a high pressure sales call, someone is getting tossed out on their head but we will see on that. The Rep at the big box store said it was just to get some facts together and price out options and I will be happy to share that once I get it. Not sure what I should be asking him so would welcome any advice on that one. If there is a thread for this, would love to find it.

          Looking at my usage history, it would seem that I average 4000 kWh a month so am figuring that if I got a 3000 kWh system, that would take a chunk consistently throughout the year.

          I am quite content to pay a fair price for someone to do the thinking for me, but just looking for the advice from smart people who know the industry to assist me in the decision making.

          Thanks - B

          Comment


          • #6
            Thank you

            Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
            Not only are you pitching SolarCity every chance you get but you didn't even read the OP's post. They already have an appointment with SC.
            Thank you, figured this was a sales lurker so ignored. SC was convenient, am in no way locked in but just seemed like a good place to start.

            Comment


            • #7
              A) good luck, and thanks for Thinking Solar - we in the industry appreciate it.

              B) Leasing - I'm not a big fan of leasing. sure, sure, your out of pockets are cheaper, but your long term expenses are well beyond the value of the system. Think of your appliance rent centers where they charge you $xyz a month for 2 years, and at the end of 2 years you've spent twice the cost of the appliance. same concept here - I don't remember the math being "twice as much", but it is definitely more expensive. If you need financial help, look into financing it - I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you live in "big home, dual ac's big pool hot tub and rv plugged in" you've got a "finance guy" or a "loan guy" you can call - if some of the solar loan people can't help you out.

              C) I'm a huge fan of a company getting on the roof. it's easy to say great exposure and 1000sq feet of roof panels, but - no offense - I've been on homes where I'm looking at both obvious and not-so obvious intrusions after folks have said this. Trees, telephone poles, neighbors houses, plumbing vents in that southern exposure, vent stacks... all sorts of stuff can distort the value of that roof. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just suggesting that you value someone who gets on the roof. Many will not - the solar industry moves fast these days, but be prepared that if the contract is signed bigger than wat ends up fitting on the roof - someones going to be very dissapointed, and someone is going to have to deal with some re-signing, reformatting, re-bidding. I just rather go in getting that out of the way and talking about proper facts, rather than estimates.

              D) about "buying crap" - a lot of equipment is fairly solid these days - Can't loose with SMA inverters, others are most likely okay - I highly suggest you getting your 3 bids on the contract work and then asking around here for evaluations on the equipment. most panels are apples to apples. I have a feeling someone will try to talk you into Mono's over Poly's... mono's ar emuch more expensive, not best suited for your kind of heat, and the value of them (higher watt density) may not really matter for some users... if you get into a bind, just remember that you don't have to sign that day, and feel free to ask teh questions around here. I think your big concern out there on this matter would be company history. be sure you grill them on how long they've been operating, how many licenced electriccians (apprentice AND journeyman will actually be on your crew (not just employed by the company in some far off supervisory role, but ACTUALLY ON YOUR INSTALL). how many NABCEP Certifications does the company hold? How many systems have they done? What's their pass/fail rate for inspections? (they will honestly not know this - these arn't often tallied criteria, but I tend to think *how* they answer that question can be quite valuable.)

              I hope this helps some. feel free to pm me if you need, but lots of guys around here are fairly smart(!) Someone might be able to get to you faster.

              Good Luck!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BrianO View Post
                Looking at my usage history, it would seem that I average 4000 kWh a month so am figuring that if I got a 3000 kWh system, that would take a chunk consistently throughout the year.
                For what it's worth, here's my two cents:
                • Get multiple bids. This is not a small project, you should approach it with the same care you would take in choosing someone to remodel your house. I suggest getting a minimum of three bids.
                • Ask all the dumb questions, and ask them of each installer. Don't be afraid to call them out if you get different answers to the same question.
                • The most important parameter in your financial decision is the estimated power production. Ask each installer how they got their numbers, and use a tool like PVWatts to do a sanity-check. A real estimate will require crawling around on your roof, so don't believe the numbers from someone who didn't do that.


                But really, the first thing I would do in your shoes is take a serious look at energy efficiency. You use a lot of electricity, and you may be able to make a big dent in your usage a lot cheaper than solar panels. Have you done a home energy audit?

                To put your usage into perspective, I live in Minnesota and I use geothermal to heat my largish house in the winter. I don't ever get to even 2,000 kWh/month even in the coldest month of the year and I use electricity to heat my house in Minnesota.
                16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

                Comment


                • #9
                  First thing I'd suggest is get other quotes. SolarCity's business model is geared towards leasing - they are unlikely to have the best deal on an outright purchase. With a home that size and such high consumption, you should really have an energy audit done. I would specifically ask SC who is responsible for paying the state tax on leased solar that is being implemented this year. Most leases have a provision that the lessor can pass that tax through to the lessee. Get it all in writing. As a businessman, I'm sure you have some experience in leases so get a copy of any lease and study its terms carefully. Consult an attorney if necessary although I've found the lease language to be fairly clear these days. Leasing solar is less like leasing a personal car and more like leasing a piece of business equipment in that you anticipate it will improve the bottom line otherwise it's of little use. Unfortunately the uncertainty about rate structures now and going forward make it a bit harder to determine that bottom line effect. In the current climate, I'd have to be saving an awful lot to go with a monthly lease especially considering the potential difficulties in selling a home with solar lease.

                  As others have said, there are changes in the works for APS solar customers. These changes will probably amount to increased cost to be connected to the grid, demand charges and/or further reduction in the benefits of net metering. The latter is the approach being taken by the state's third major utility Tucson Electric Power. SRP seems to be going for demand charges while APS in the past opted for a monthly fee based on system size. I suspect APS may change their approach to one where it's harder to nail down the degree of screwing solar customers get. In that respect, SRP was smart since they can claim the customer can adjust their usage patterns to minimize the extra bite. You can't really do that with a fixed monthly fee like APS originally proposed.

                  Typically, I'd say take your time to make a decision but, in the current environment, waiting too long may be costly if you wind up being too late to be grandfathered into existing rates. Of course there's no guarantee that grandfathering will take place but that was the approach APS originally used and the Corp. Comm. agreed to. Grandfathering of course is not just fair but it also splits the opposition to the rate changes into the haves and the have nots. I think the latter is more important to the utilities.

                  If I were you, I'd spend some focused effort on an energy audit and getting several quotes that include purchase and leasing (are there still any prepaid leases?) Look into financing possibilities for outright purchase. Quality installers in the valley include Solar Topps, Harmon, Carleson and others. Probably not an issue for you but make sure you can take full advantage of any tax credits before they expire next year.

                  I think it's safe to say that here in the hot desert, unless you have shade issues, you're probably better off with a string inverter. SC seems to be pushing Fronius inverters these days but I like the SMA ones that have the emergency power outlet option.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What Ian said.

                    You should definitely take the time to understand your energy usage and find ways to reduce it before going solar.

                    Easy first steps: have you switched to LED lights yet? Have you gotten a Kill-a-watt meter and measured how much power your fridge etc. use in a day? Have you set your computers to sleep on idle?

                    And then there's HVAC, the big ticket item. That's where an energy audit can help identify big potential savings.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BrianO View Post
                      I have solarcity coming tomorrow evening to draw things up and make a proposal, problem is that I know nothing about solar.
                      Guess what, your S/C's favorite kind of customer.

                      Here's my suggestion:

                      1. Call as many companies as you can. You dont need to meet with them, just ask for this.

                      The best "out the door price" on a 10kw system. Have them list the panels, the racking system, and the inverter type and brand.

                      While they are responding, do a energy audit. Power is always easier and cheaper to save, than generate. Once the audit is done, perform whats needed to get things straightened up.

                      2. Go over your quotes. Perform a simple "dollars per watt" calculation. Throw everything out over $3.50 a watt. ( Example: 10kw for $35,000 = $3.50 per watt / installed )

                      3. Take the quotes you have left, and then meet with the companies. At his point you can fine tune your install, figure your real KW needs, add any goodies, have the roof inspected, find who your comfortable with, and set the final price.

                      Their is no rush to get his done in a hurry, the sun isnt going anywhere.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Alisobob View Post
                        Their is no rush to get his done in a hurry, the sun isnt going anywhere.
                        The sun may not be going anywhere but APS rates are. If he misses out on grandfathering, that could ultimately cost him on the order of $12K assuming APS gets a similar solar rate increase as SRP did and grandfathering is for the same 20 years as the last solar rate hike..

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "APS customers who have installed solar after Dec. 31, 2013, also have contracts that, according to the decision, were to make it clear the 70-cent fee could be increased or decreased.

                          If APS does file for an increase as expected, it could affect those customers, although the people who installed solar before that likely will continue to avoid the increase."

                          You need to be installed before 1-1-14 to be "Grandfathered In".....

                          http://www.azcentral.com/story/money...fees/70283120/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Alisobob View Post
                            "APS customers who have installed solar after Dec. 31, 2013, also have contracts that, according to the decision, were to make it clear the 70-cent fee could be increased or decreased.

                            If APS does file for an increase as expected, it could affect those customers, although the people who installed solar before that likely will continue to avoid the increase."

                            You need to be installed before 1-1-14 to be "Grandfathered In".....

                            http://www.azcentral.com/story/money...fees/70283120/
                            I seriously doubt that the post-2013 solar customers would be subjected to the full impact of the new fees. The Corp. Commission is comprised of political animals after all. And it's easier for APS to grandfather existing customers and thereby split the opposition to the rate hike. After all, it's mostly existing customers who come out and pack the rate hearings not potential customers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Alisobob View Post
                              Guess what, your S/C's favorite kind of customer.

                              Here's my suggestion:

                              1. Call as many companies as you can. You dont need to meet with them, just ask for this.

                              The best "out the door price" on a 10kw system. Have them list the panels, the racking system, and the inverter type and brand.

                              2. Go over your quotes. Perform a simple "dollars per watt" calculation. Throw everything out over $3.50 a watt. ( Example: 10kw for $35,000 = $3.50 per watt / installed )

                              3. Take the quotes you have left, and then meet with the companies. At his point you can fine tune your install, figure your real KW needs, add any goodies, have the roof inspected, find who your comfortable with, and set the final price.
                              Thank you for the advice, sounds like a good plan, leasing is out, will finance/pay up front, question, does the $3.50/watt calculation before or after rebates? Only makes me wonder as SC gave me a rough plan for a 13.5KW system at a cost of about $61k before rebates. About $4.50/watt???

                              Looking at generating juice to pay out the higher cost of on peak electricity, I know I use a ton of juice, I need new AC units (got a couple 12 seer units from 1991 that still run perfect unfortunately) have a huge pool, Business Servers that back up my office, hot tub, RV Cottage, Horse Lighting, Work Shop with AC and lots of woodworking/welding, I get it, I use a ton, I can live with that, I just want to use a ton as wisely as possible. Home is LED/CFL, all appliances rated well for consumption...

                              Figured I would send a questionnaire out to the major companies in the PHX area, am going to ask each of them the following so I can compare apples to apples, when I get the responses, I will pare it down to 3 to come out and discuss particulars for my home and go from there. Would love your input on my questions, am I missing anything? Too Much? Not enough? Not afraid to make people earn my business and am willing to pay a fair price for a good system. Questions are:

                              1. What is your best "out the door price" on a 10k w system.
                              2. What panels does this system use?
                              3. What racking system does this use?
                              4. What would the inverter type and brand be for this system?
                              5. What Energy Price would be charged by my systems production?
                              6. What is the annual rate of increase with my system moving forward?
                              7. What warranty comes with your installation, term? Parts and Labor?

                              May need some help assessing things like panels, inverters and such since I don't know the brands, but that is down the road.

                              Thank you in advance for everyone's input, Have a great Easter! -- Brian

                              Comment

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