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SRP (Arizona POCO) hits solar customers with $50/month fee. APS next?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ian S View Post
    Before solar, my cost per kWh including taxes was $0.11 averaged over the entire year.
    I think when its all said and done... My 20 years of solar production divided by the cost is something like $0.08 a KWH.

    The $50 monthly charge ruins the AZ math.

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    • #17
      The sales pitch for leases here in AZ is about saving roughly $50 per month...you save $600 per year and "lock in" your electric bill for the next 20 years. So yeah, a $50 hike basically gives you no saving.

      Here is the thing though, it's not really a flat fee $50 like I assumed and like all the articles seem to allude to.
      Here is the actual info from SRP, page 66: http://www.srpnet.com/prices/pricepr...ok.pdf#page=71

      I only quickly scanned over it, but it seems this is very much TOU based and very much based on how much energy you're using from SRPs grid?
      So does it then mean the people with the smallest systems will be penalized the most? You'll be "labeled" as a solar customer, so you are forced into this rate plan, but if your system is small and you still rely on the grid a lot, it seem like you'll be paying a lot vs if you have a big system, you'll pull very little from the grid?

      And what if you are on a Standard plan and no a TOU one? Or one that has the Demand aspect of it...or are they forcing solar customers into a TOU plan with Demand?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ian S View Post
        At this point I would not touch a monthly lease in Arizona and I'd only consider a prepaid - if they still exist - if it made financial sense e.g. if the homeowner couldn't find a way to utilize the tax credits. Even then there's the new tax aspect to consider. But I'm not sure even purchasing makes a lot of sense in SRP territory any more especially if you're doing some kind of financing. Certainly, the payback time has significantly increased and a lot more getting into the weeds on your usage would be required: i.e. would you have a way to limit your demand charge during the late afternoon/early evening timeframe when the demand would be highest and production falling off to zero? I was actually on a combined TOU/Demand rate before going to solar - it actually saved me money - but you really had to be careful of that demand charge. One slip up and you're screwed for the whole month! Most folks would probably have to install demand controllers. The SRP demand charge is especially onerous as it's based on a half hour window not the one hour window I used to have.
        Just a thought: Someone sharp and willing to understand POCO rates may be able to create a market for doing the customer dirty work and seeing if/how/when to giggle the system and/or optimize tariff plan choices, usage patterns or other things. Why the POCOs haven't already done that in an effective way and in so doing B.S.'d their way into calming some of the PR storm this is causing is something that escapes me.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by HX_Guy View Post
          The sales pitch for leases here in AZ is about saving roughly $50 per month...you save $600 per year and "lock in" your electric bill for the next 20 years. So yeah, a $50 hike basically gives you no saving.

          Here is the thing though, it's not really a flat fee $50 like I assumed and like all the articles seem to allude to.
          Here is the actual info from SRP, page 66: http://www.srpnet.com/prices/pricepr...ok.pdf#page=71

          I only quickly scanned over it, but it seems this is very much TOU based and very much based on how much energy you're using from SRPs grid?
          So does it then mean the people with the smallest systems will be penalized the most? You'll be "labeled" as a solar customer, so you are forced into this rate plan, but if your system is small and you still rely on the grid a lot, it seem like you'll be paying a lot vs if you have a big system, you'll pull very little from the grid?

          And what if you are on a Standard plan and no a TOU one? Or one that has the Demand aspect of it...or are they forcing solar customers into a TOU plan with Demand?
          All solar customers are forced into the new rate plan as I understand it. It is very similar to the "demand advantage" plan I was on before solar although I haven't actually compared the rates. Because the peak time extends to 8 PM when solar production will be negligible, that demand cost all depends on the solar customer's usage in that final few hours of peak time, IOW when the solar is not a factor. Easy solution: just don't use your electric water heater, dryer, swimming pool pump, stove, microwave or AC between 3 and 8 PM and you'll be good to go.

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          • #20
            Ouch. Man I hope APS doesn't do something similar, but I have a feeling they will. Though people who already have it should be ok, so no need to really sweat it on my end I guess.

            What a crappy time too with that Demand...I'd imagine there is a lot of stove, oven, and microwave use between 6pm - 8pm as people are eating dinner and solar isn't a factor.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by HX_Guy View Post
              Ouch. Man I hope APS doesn't do something similar, but I have a feeling they will. Though people who already have it should be ok, so no need to really sweat it on my end I guess.

              What a crappy time too with that Demand...I'd imagine there is a lot of stove, oven, and microwave use between 6pm - 8pm as people are eating dinner and solar isn't a factor.
              Yeah, we don't have to sweat it, grandfathering can be pretty much assumed at least for a major change like that. But there are plenty of minor tweaks that APS could make that would be to our disadvantage e.g. they lowered the trueup buyback rate by half last year.

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              • #22
                Oh, and let's not forget how SRP does their trueup in April so that your ability to bank Kwh before the summer heat is limited. Of course after summer is over your excess production builds up over seven months so you can sell it back to SRP for $0.04/kWh. Nice!

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                • #23
                  I'm not too concerned about the trueup buyback rate, if I even overproduce anything, it would be very minimal and I suspect most people do not have over generation credit at the end of the year.

                  What does concern me are things like the "Appendix IIA Disclaimer" I had to sign which says that my system is subject to future rules and rates changes. The disclaimer is dated rev. 12/18/2013 so I assume anyone who applied for solar with APS after that date probably signed this same document. People prior to that date are the ones truly grandfathered in.

                  I'm also subject to the $0.70/kW fee that APS implemented last year. It's not a huge fee at the moment ($0.70 x 11.4kW AC = $7.98/month) but apparently it's a temporary fee while they look at what they should really be charging. What scared me most is the whole Demand thing which APS tried to already implement but were denied by the Corp Commission, but now with SRP going that route, I can see APS also getting approved on the next round. That can really be a killer, especially in a house like ours with 2 AC units...with both running, and then say turning on the oven for dinner in the summer...that will easily surpass 12-13kW of demand...and even if you do it just once, you're screwed for the whole month.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ian S View Post
                    Oh, and let's not forget how SRP does their trueup in April so that your ability to bank Kwh before the summer heat is limited. Of course after summer is over your excess production builds up over seven months so you can sell it back to SRP for $0.04/kWh. Nice!
                    I'm not follow on this one. Unless the Net metering is total different in Arizona as California. In CA, regardless what month your trueup start, you get full 12 months for your net metering. It doesn't really matter which month it starts becasue you got full 12 months to cover. Your net is base on whole year so what different does it make if your trueup starts in Jan or Sept?

                    The only affect I see if you start your solar in Winter and every solar trueup ends on April and your might not have enough time to build up your credit for Winter usage. But again, that will only affect the 1st year, after that you get full 12 months regardless.

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                    • #25
                      In Arizona, SRP's trueup resets in April like was mentioned and APS at te end of the year.

                      With APS, you get to "bank" credits from Jan - May that you then use in June-Sept as the solar typically doesn't produce enough power to cover the summer electric usage. After th summer, you're at roughly net zero and the rest of the year the solar more or less produces enough to cover your usage for the remainder of the year.

                      With SRP, they reset you "bank" in April, so you don't get a chance to accumulate credits for the summer and end up buying a lot more from the grid. Yes after summer you end up accumulating more credits but the value isn't really in getting them cashed out, but in using them to offset the usage from the grid.

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                      • #26
                        I assume you are saying all net metering trueup in April correct? or everyone's trueup in different month but POCO reset bank in every April?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by silversaver View Post
                          I'm not follow on this one. Unless the Net metering is total different in Arizona as California. In CA, regardless what month your trueup start, you get full 12 months for your net metering. It doesn't really matter which month it starts becasue you got full 12 months to cover. Your net is base on whole year so what different does it make if your trueup starts in Jan or Sept?

                          The only affect I see if you start your solar in Winter and every solar trueup ends on April and your might not have enough time to build up your credit for Winter usage. But again, that will only affect the 1st year, after that you get full 12 months regardless.
                          Arizona IS different. Our billing period is monthly. Every month, APS either draws from your banked solar, adds to it or if there is none, charges you for electricity you pulled from the grid. Whatever is left of banked solar at trueup in December gets bought for $0.029/kWh. You can't use the excess to go back and offset your grid usage earlier in the year.

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                          • #28
                            Ian,

                            Are you saying generation/consumption at different rate/price? Or are you saying:

                            For the month, if your solar generation is higher than what your consumption, POCO pays you $0.029/kWh

                            For the month, if your solar generation is less than what your consumption, POCO charges you at TOU/Tier rate.

                            In CA, regardless of what plan you had, it shows dollar value on your monthly statement. It add up to 12 billing cycles. If you have overgeneration at trueup, POCO pays your $0.049/kWh. If your solar generation is less than what your consumption, you pay the final dollar value at end. It is not 1kWh to 1kWh offset too.

                            For example:

                            Tier system, Tier 1 @ $0.15, Tier 2 @ $0.19, Tier 3 @ $0.26 and Tier 4 @ $0.32

                            if you bank 100kWh each month for the first 11 months for total of 100kWh X 11 months = 1100kWh, POCO only credit your account 1100kWh X Tier 1 rate of $0.15 (at tier 1 rate of 0.15) = $165 credit bank.

                            If your last month you used 1100kWh from POCO, then they are chargin you at

                            Tier 1: 296kWH X 0.15 = $44.4
                            Tier 2: 88kWH X 0.19 = $16.72
                            Tier 3: 207kWh X 0.26 = $53.82
                            Tier 4: 509kWh X 0.32 = $162.88

                            Total of $277.82

                            You still need to pay $277.82 - $165 (bank credit) = $112.82

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                            • #29
                              In California, do you sell and buy all your solar? Or does your house use what it needs and the POCO only sees the remainder?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by HX_Guy View Post
                                In California, do you sell and buy all your solar? Or does your house use what it needs and the POCO only sees the remainder?
                                In CA, only 1 meter. POCO sees your net after consumption during solar production. Simple and straight forward. Regardless of rate plan, whatever they charges you and whatever they pays you as credit. Only at trueup, they pay you $0.049/kWh for your overgeneration.

                                POCO credits you the same way they charging you. For March 2014, I was on vacation and has over 700kWh banked, SCE pays me: (see picture)
                                Attached Files

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