Help with troubleshooting anyone?

[Sargkaz]

Minimum charge controller voltage is 7 volts in this case. I'm trying to give the OP credit for not trying to use dead batteries to power his system, but you might be right. What is the voltage on the batteries, when not hooked up to anything?

I question the batteries too, but twice now the dealer has brought them back to me fully charged and told me they were fine, then they drain on my system. I have tried taking them to auto parts stores, and have been told they can't check those types of batteries. Voltage was 12.7, now 11.3, not hooked up to anything.

[Sunking]

This has been 2 different controllers giving the same low readings...they used to read 17, but now the highest has only been 5. Batteries are at 11.3.

Are you saying the panel input voltage at the controller is 5 volts? If so you gotta problem as it should never be lower than the battery voltage except at night.

That means either your panels are wired incorrectly, one or more panels is bad, or your charge controller is bad. Real easy to tell which is bad.

Tomorrow when it gets light. disconnect the two wires from the panels and measure the voltage. If the panels are wired correctly and operational you should see the voltage at Voc or around 22 volts. If you see 22 volts or in that neighborhood your controller is bad. If you still see low voltage you have either a wiring or panel problem and both are easy to figure out.

[Sargkaz]

Are you saying the panel input voltage at the controller is 5 volts? If so you gotta problem as it should never be lower than the battery voltage except at night.

That means either your panels are wired incorrectly, one or more panels is bad, or your charge controller is bad. Real easy to tell which is bad.

Tomorrow when it gets light. disconnect the two wires from the panels and measure the voltage. If the panels are wired correctly and operational you should see the voltage at Voc or around 22 volts. If you see 22 volts or in that neighborhood your controller is bad. If you still see low voltage you have either a wiring or panel problem and both are easy to figure out.

At the highest point of sunshine in the day, the CC' s meter reading says no more than 5...this is why I purchased a new controller, but the new controller readings are the same. I paid a licensed solar electrician to analyze my system, wiring and all, and he agreed it was the controller. I believe he did what you suggested, and 22V. When the new controller didn't solve the problem, I quit getting responses from him.

What I wonder, too, is if there just isn't enough sun at this time of the year in my region. However, this system has worked before in this location during this time of year, and we were getting plenty of use out of it. So...it all worked, crashed, batteries replaced, worked, crashed, batteries charged on a different system, works 2weeks, crashed, New controller, never came back from previous crash in July.

Thank you for your efforts to help me.

[Mike90250]

The next step is to take the Charge controller temporally out of the system and wire the PV directly to the batteries. If you reverse the polarities, you will destroy the PV panels in an instant.

Measure the battery voltage every half hour with your meter, it should slowly climb during the sunny hours. Disconnect the panels at night or the batteries will backfeed and be dead in the AM.

Do not direct charge the battery past 13.5V, you need a controller to manage the charge.

You do have a separate volt meter to test the voltages with - don't you ? Within a day, 2 at the most, you should have the batteries up to 13.5V, and can be assured that they should power the controller. Wire the controller back in, battery first, wait for the blinky lights to stop (computer booting up) and then connect the panels.

Don't connect ANYTHING to the load terminals on the controller, it's only for a small light, and it's a useless waste of 2 terminals. The Load can't power much of anything, and if you hook an inverter or appliance to it, that can fry the controller.

[Sunking]

At the highest point of sunshine in the day, the CC' s meter reading says no more than 5...this is why I purchased a new controller, but the new controller readings are the same. I paid a licensed solar electrician to analyze my system, wiring and all, and he agreed it was the controller. I believe he did what you suggested, and 22V.

Bottom line is if your CC input voltage from the panels is 5 volts it can only be one of two things wrong and very easy to isolate.

Tomorrow get a volt meter out, when you get direct sunlight, remove the two wires from the panels that connect to the input of the controller and measure the voltage on the wires. If the voltage is 22 volts most likely the panels are OK and your controller is the problem. If you measure less than say 20 volts from the panels, you have a panel issue.

The lowest normal operating voltage you should ever see in daylight from the panels is 1 volt higher than the battery voltage up to Voc of 22 volts.

Trouble shooting is that easy to figure out which one is the problem way the problem is coming from.

If I were to bet, you have a panel problem with wiring or a bad panel.

Which leads us to part 2 of the trouble shooting. If the above test indicates a panel problem, you need to isolate which panel is causing the problem. To do that you get up on the roof with your meter. Disconnect each panel and measure the voltage of each panel while disconnected. You should see about 22 volts from each panel. You are looking for the one that is way below 22 volts. When and if you find it leave it disconnected and reconnect the rest. Then you should be back to working partially minus the panel of the bad panel.

The other thing to check is the wiring of the panels and make sure it is correct.

Trust me this is easy stuff a high school kid can do. Your contractor sounds like an idiot, solar systems are easy to troubleshoot and fix.

[Sargkaz]

The next step is to take the Charge controller temporally out of the system and wire the PV directly to the batteries. If you reverse the polarities, you will destroy the PV panels in an instant.

Measure the battery voltage every half hour with your meter, it should slowly climb during the sunny hours. Disconnect the panels at night or the batteries will backfeed and be dead in the AM.

Do not direct charge the battery past 13.5V, you need a controller to manage the charge.

You do have a separate volt meter to test the voltages with - don't you ? Within a day, 2 at the most, you should have the batteries up to 13.5V, and can be assured that they should power the controller. Wire the controller back in, battery first, wait for the blinky lights to stop (computer booting up) and then connect the panels.

Don't connect ANYTHING to the load terminals on the controller, it's only for a small light, and it's a useless waste of 2 terminals. The Load can't power much of anything, and if you hook an inverter or appliance to it, that can fry the controller.

Thanks. That's probably a bit out of my comfort zone to try personally, but I will show this to the folks around here that can watch and make sure I am doing it right. As far as I know, nothing has been connected to the load terminals.

Since I do suspect faulty batteries, is it possible to bypass the batteries and go straight to the inverter to see if power is supplied directly?

[Sargkaz]

Bottom line is if your CC input voltage from the panels is 5 volts it can only be one of two things wrong and very easy to isolate.

Tomorrow get a volt meter out, when you get direct sunlight, remove the two wires from the panels that connect to the input of the controller and measure the voltage on the wires. If the voltage is 22 volts most likely the panels are OK and your controller is the problem. If you measure less than say 20 volts from the panels, you have a panel issue.

The lowest normal operating voltage you should ever see in daylight from the panels is 1 volt higher than the battery voltage up to Voc of 22 volts.

Trouble shooting is that easy to figure out which one is the problem way the problem is coming from.

If I were to bet, you have a panel problem with wiring or a bad panel.

Which leads us to part 2 of the trouble shooting. If the above test indicates a panel problem, you need to isolate which panel is causing the problem. To do that you get up on the roof with your meter. Disconnect each panel and measure the voltage of each panel while disconnected. You should see about 22 volts from each panel. You are looking for the one that is way below 22 volts. When and if you find it leave it disconnected and reconnect the rest. Then you should be back to working partially minus the panel of the bad panel.

The other thing to check is the wiring of the panels and make sure it is correct.

Trust me this is easy stuff a high school kid can do. Your contractor sounds like an idiot, solar systems are easy to troubleshoot and fix.

I certainly agree with your last statement! And I am likely an idiot for trusting not one, but three (of 6 in this half of the state) contractors not to lead me astray in my quest to start the process of going off grid. I am in the medical field, so this is all foreign to me...but I've learned a lot in the past few months, with a great deal more to learn. Hopefully I get enough knowledge here soon so I won't have to rely on hiring a less than ethical licensed solar contractor.

Thank you for your suggestion...I will try it as soon as our weather clears.

[sensij]

Bottom line is if your CC input voltage from the panels is 5 volts it can only be one of two things wrong and very easy to isolate.

Tomorrow get a volt meter out, when you get direct sunlight, remove the two wires from the panels that connect to the input of the controller and measure the voltage on the wires. If the voltage is 22 volts most likely the panels are OK and your controller is the problem. If you measure less than say 20 volts from the panels, you have a panel issue.

The lowest normal operating voltage you should ever see in daylight from the panels is 1 volt higher than the battery voltage up to Voc of 22 volts.

Trouble shooting is that easy to figure out which one is the problem way the problem is coming from.

Edit: Also, to answer your question, no, you can not run the inverter directly off the solar panels. It needs to run off the batteries.
If I were to bet, you have a panel problem with wiring or a bad panel.

Which leads us to part 2 of the trouble shooting. If the above test indicates a panel problem, you need to isolate which panel is causing the problem. To do that you get up on the roof with your meter. Disconnect each panel and measure the voltage of each panel while disconnected. You should see about 22 volts from each panel. You are looking for the one that is way below 22 volts. When and if you find it leave it disconnected and reconnect the rest. Then you should be back to working partially minus the panel of the bad panel.

The other thing to check is the wiring of the panels and make sure it is correct.

Trust me this is easy stuff a high school kid can do. Your contractor sounds like an idiot, solar systems are easy to troubleshoot and fix.

Actually, a third thing could be wrong... the remote meter could be lying about 5 V. It would explain why changing the charge controller did not affect it. The charge controller could in fact be working OK.

Mike's suggestion to charge directly from the panels is one that I was thinking about. However, the risk that the polarity is backwards is still on the table, and as he said, that would quickly cause more problems. So, don't do it unless you sure you've got it right. Here are a couple more ideas.

1) Disconnect the remote meter. Rely only on direct measurements of the terminals going forward.
2) You've already verified the open circuit voltage is 22 V. Good, we know the panels are wired in parallel correctly.
3) With everything connected to the charge controller as it has been, measure the voltage on the solar terminals. If it is still 22 V, the circuit is open, and that suggests a controller problem. If it is something like 17 V, all is healthy. If it is 5 V, the meter was telling the truth and I would guess your problem is that the MPPT controller is for some reason setting the wrong value.
4) Please report what the LED's are showing at night, with everything hooked up, and then tomorrow during the day, with everything hooked up. There are three battery LED's and one status LED.

It seems unlikely that bad batteries are causing the 5 V reading on the remote display. The batteries may be turn out to be bad, but I think there is something else going on here too.

Edit: To answer your question, no, the inverter can not be run directly from the solar panels. It needs to be hooked up to the batteries to be used.

[Sargkaz]

Actually, a third thing could be wrong... the remote meter could be lying about 5 V. It would explain why changing the charge controller did not affect it. The charge controller could in fact be working OK.

Mike's suggestion to charge directly from the panels is one that I was thinking about. However, the risk that the polarity is backwards is still on the table, and as he said, that would quickly cause more problems. So, don't do it unless you sure you've got it right. Here are a couple more ideas.

1) Disconnect the remote meter. Rely only on direct measurements of the terminals going forward.
2) You've already verified the open circuit voltage is 22 V. Good, we know the panels are wired in parallel correctly.
3) With everything connected to the charge controller as it has been, measure the voltage on the solar terminals. If it is still 22 V, the circuit is open, and that suggests a controller problem. If it is something like 17 V, all is healthy. If it is 5 V, the meter was telling the truth and I would guess your problem is that the MPPT controller is for some reason setting the wrong value.
4) Please report what the LED's are showing at night, with everything hooked up, and then tomorrow during the day, with everything hooked up. There are three battery LED's and one status LED.

It seems unlikely that bad batteries are causing the 5 V reading on the remote display. The batteries may be turn out to be bad, but I think there is something else going on here too.

Edit: To answer your question, no, the inverter can not be run directly from the solar panels. It needs to be hooked up to the batteries to be used.

The LED status is constant, day or night. On the remote meter and the controller, the red light is lit. The status light is a green blinking light... every five seconds, day and night. The meter does read "--" at night and very cloudy days, but right now, with heavy rain and dark clouds, it is reading 1.30.

Pretty much everything you have said are my thoughts too. I will disconnect the remote meter to see what that does...can't hurt. The only other thing that hasn't been touched yet is the pull-out switch. Not sure if that has anything to do with it, but that's a cheap attempt.

For #3, the voltage remains 22V...on the old controller and the new one. I suppose it's possible to have received two defective controllers in a row, but I find that unlikely. The Morningstar people are avoiding my calls/messages as well, so they must find it unlikely too.

The easiest solution in all of this would be to find and borrow someone else's batteries and controller to try on my system and troubleshoot that way. Unfortunately, I am the lone woman in this half of the state to have a stand-alone system, and there are no distributors in the area to have extra parts to let me try. So I thank you for your suggestions and reasoning, and will give the unplugged remote meter a try...when the sun is actually out to test it. Thanks!

[Mike90250]

Since I do suspect faulty batteries, is it possible to bypass the batteries and go straight to the inverter to see if power is supplied directly?

DO NOT do this, it will harm the inverter if the panels are good. Panels with out being loaded with batteries, will produce over 20V which can harm a 12V inverter.

Since you are getting the same results with 2 charge controllers, is there a change that in the process, you have gotten some wires reversed somewhere along the line ? Solar panels rarely go bad, unless broken or cracked.

[Sargkaz]

DO NOT do this, it will harm the inverter if the panels are good. Panels with out being loaded with batteries, will produce over 20V which can harm a 12V inverter.

Since you are getting the same results with 2 charge controllers, is there a change that in the process, you have gotten some wires reversed somewhere along the line ? Solar panels rarely go bad, unless broken or cracked.

Alright, thanks! As you can see, electricity is not my forte. This system was sold to me, and then the dealer left me high and dry...So I have been trying to learn and manage it myself. I have had a few electrician friends look at the wiring, and we all think it looks good...but that can certainly be the issue. Blown fuses could be an issue, but as far as I can see, they look good.

[sensij]

Alright, thanks! As you can see, electricity is not my forte. This system was sold to me, and then the dealer left me high and dry...So I have been trying to learn and manage it myself. I have had a few electrician friends look at the wiring, and we all think it looks good...but that can certainly be the issue. Blown fuses could be an issue, but as far as I can see, they look good.

Have you been able to check the polarity of the solar wiring? It is relatively easy to check... with your volt meter, make sure the + probe (usually red) is on the + terminal, and the - probe (usually black) is on the - terminal. If the volt meters reads +22 volts, then it is wired correctly.

The battery status LED is consistent with your direct measurements, it should go to red below 11.5 V. The flashing green LED suggests that it is charging, which we believe is not true from the voltage measured on the solar terminals. Once you verify the solar wiring, hooking it up directly to the battery as suggested earlier would be a good way to verify the panels are OK and try to get some charge into your battery.

In the long run, maintaining a battery system will take some electrical knowledge and troubleshooting ability. It is good that you are trying to learn this now. You might also consider buying up a clamp on current probe for your meter, so you can verify actual current flow.

[Sargkaz]

Have you been able to check the polarity of the solar wiring? It is relatively easy to check... with your volt meter, make sure the + probe (usually red) is on the + terminal, and the - probe (usually black) is on the - terminal. If the volt meters reads +22 volts, then it is wired correctly.

The battery status LED is consistent with your direct measurements, it should go to red below 11.5 V. The flashing green LED suggests that it is charging, which we believe is not true from the voltage measured on the solar terminals. Once you verify the solar wiring, hooking it up directly to the battery as suggested earlier would be a good way to verify the panels are OK and try to get some charge into your battery.

In the long run, maintaining a battery system will take some electrical knowledge and troubleshooting ability. It is good that you are trying to learn this now. You might also consider buying up a clamp on current probe for your meter, so you can verify actual current flow.

Nope, haven't checked them yet, as we have ice covered with snow on the roof/panels....but I will soon. I am fairly certain that we checked each individual panel in July, and they each read at 22V individually, but I do want to double-check that at the earliest chance. Here shortly, I plan to connect directly to the batteries as you suggested and give that a whirl, once the ice/snow is off of the panels. Thanks for that suggestion...much cheaper than buying a new/different CC to troubleshoot!

The flashing green is usually constant, with a heartbeat every 5 or 10 seconds, when everything is working appropriately. I am anxious to see if things improve when the sun gets a bit higher in the sky, but I doubt it.

At this point, I am thinking of tying to the grid, IF I can find someone to help me with that. I could still charge the batteries (if they are functional) by day with a charger, and use them for back up power as long as they last since I have the inverter...that's obviously not ideal though. I would assume I'd have to purchase a few more panels to do that, but purchasing batteries every few years will obviously get pricey, as well as just the headache of maintaining them.

Thanks again for all your help and suggestions...and speaking in a language this novice can understand...much appreciated!