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Off-grid inverter to connect hybrid vehicle to home?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by yewsuck View Post
    Check out this company for your inverter. http://www.sunfine.com/products/ Depending on battery pack voltage and inverter needs they may have a model that fits your usage. I have seen this brand used in the Philippines @ 220V 60hz. It has lasted over three years as his only electricity for his house. Just install a large DC jack and use Andersen connector based extension cord to the vehicle.
    Thanks for posting. Here is where I get a little confused with regard to "off grid." This inverter still allows for a grid connection to feed a load, but does not appear to feed power back to the grid. Is that the true definition of "off grid?" I had always assumed that off grid meant that there was no provision for connecting to the grid whatosever, as in the case of an off grid property where there simply is no utility service available. Regardless, at least the way I'm looking at this, here is what I would envision-this is the configuration of the Sunfine from their website:



    Here is how I would imagine the setup looking used for my purposes (please excuse the crude MS Paint graphic):



    Originally posted by yewsuck View Post
    Use a center tap balancing transformer to make your 220v to 110v conversion as required same as you would use on a 220v generator. Watch your grounding when using a transformer. It gets tricky.[
    I don't think this would be necessary because I would want to feed both legs of my main panel and be able to operate 220V loads in my home, if only one at a time such as the water heater (only one element), and a 1 ton AC unit.

    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
    There is a whole group devoted to Prius As A generator...If you can manage the wiring connections safely, and have sized inverter to your loads and transfer switch, it's a pretty decent system. As efficient as the Honda inverter gensets on auto-throttle, the Prius uses a
    high efficiency alternator for the traction battery, not the 80W 12v aluminum brick on most cars.
    The PriUPS project and others is what inspired me to look for a simpler solution. A lot of those guys run UPS units in their homes anyway because they have a lot of tech to protect, servers, equipment, and whatnot. Many of them have it set up so that in the event of the power failure the UPS kicks in and they have enough time to hook up the Prius so that the power is truly un-interrupted. I don't need that, I just want to be able to connect my hybrid to my house the same way one would connect a run of the mill emergency generator via a transfer switch.

    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
    But it's not seamless, you still have to manually move the car out of the garage and hook up the cable AND leave it "ON" and unattended in the driveway (I don't know if you can lock the door from the outside with system enabled)
    I think innetdog addressed the key issue, but for added security you could always go with the old fashioned method of jacking up one corner, removing a wheel, placing a jackstand underneath, and taking the wheel and lugnuts inside.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Badfish740 View Post
      Thanks for posting. Here is where I get a little confused with regard to "off grid." This inverter still allows for a grid connection to feed a load, but does not appear to feed power back to the grid. Is that the true definition of "off grid?" I had always assumed that off grid meant that there was no provision for connecting to the grid whatosever, as in the case of an off grid property where there simply is no utility service available. Regardless, at least the way I'm looking at this, here is what I would envision-this is the configuration of the Sunfine from their website:

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]5701[/ATTACH]

      Here is how I would imagine the setup looking used for my purposes (please excuse the crude MS Paint graphic):

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]5702[/ATTACH]

      Your attachments did not show up for me. The input AC is the same as would be on any inverter/charger. Most of your standard inverter chargers nowdays are a whole house UPS system. That AC input could be from the Grid, a generator, or any other AC source. It is to charge the batteries on most models. The Sunfine is a little different in that it will use that AC input first to power the loads. Then to charge the batteries. Most of the standard inverters will just charge the batteries and the house would always run off the batteries. Hence the grid input is just to keep the batteries charged when available.

      I don't think this would be necessary because I would want to feed both legs of my main panel and be able to operate 220V loads in my home, if only one at a time such as the water heater (only one element), and a 1 ton AC unit.

      It will be a lot more work to hook the Sunfine up with out a center tapping transformer. You will have to separate the 110v and 220v circuits with out a transformer. The Sunfine only has one Line and one neutral. 220vac from L to N. Your panel now should have 110v from L to N and another 110v L 180deg out to original N. If you hook it up straight to the panel your 220vac loads would be fine, but your 120vac outlets will be 220v outlets. The sunfine needs to be hooked up just like you would a 220vac generator to a house. Transformers are about $300 USD on Ebay for a used 12KW+ model. You just do not hook the neutral to ground on the Sunfine side when using a transformer. Five wires to hook up 220v L to N and 110v L, -110v L, and output N. It would look like this.... 3}{C

      The PriUPS project and others is what inspired me to look for a simpler solution. A lot of those guys run UPS units in their homes anyway because they have a lot of tech to protect, servers, equipment, and whatnot. Many of them have it set up so that in the event of the power failure the UPS kicks in and they have enough time to hook up the Prius so that the power is truly un-interrupted. I don't need that, I just want to be able to connect my hybrid to my house the same way one would connect a run of the mill emergency generator via a transfer switch.

      In all honesty I think it would be better to just install a normal grid tie/ off grid system with battery backup and then use your prius to charge your offgrid backup batteries using a dc-dc converter. Like a 200-300vdc to 48v converter. With your system as a normally used grid tie/ off grid setup you get the experience of this great forum and many others for setup and troubleshooting. With a stand alone one off system you get only yourself to troubleshoot and others guessing. Another note is that if your car is wreaked and you get a different hybrid or a non hybrid you will have less to change.

      I think innetdog addressed the key issue, but for added security you could always go with the old fashioned method of jacking up one corner, removing a wheel, placing a jackstand underneath, and taking the wheel and lugnuts inside.
      A lot of people on the forums were stating that they just attached a exhaust hose to the tail pipe and ran that outside. That is a big nono in my mind due to monoxide and fire hazards. I really never could figure out a good way to do this without risking theft. It would really suck to tell the insurance company that you had the car running in the garage all night when the fire happened... Or the key was in the car and the car was running all night outside without anyone around to watch it when it was stolen.


      -YS

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      • #18
        Originally posted by yewsuck View Post
        A lot of people on the forums were stating that they just attached a exhaust hose to the tail pipe and ran that outside. That is a big nono in my mind due to monoxide and fire hazards. I really never could figure out a good way to do this without risking theft. It would really suck to tell the insurance company that you had the car running in the garage all night when the fire happened... Or the key was in the car and the car was running all night outside without anyone around to watch it when it was stolen.
        I would not be comfortable running the car in the garage, of course, running it in the garage would have to mean removing all of the crap from the garage so that it could fit in the first place Nevertheless, I think removing a wheel is probably the most foolproof security measure possible. I suppose a thief could show up with his own Prius wheel and lugnuts, but unlikely. While you're still engaged in this thread, I'd love to get more of your thoughts on the Sunfine inverters. Browsing the site, I found this one, which does not have a battery charging feature which the previous one does:

        http://www.sunfinepower.com/en/Produ...?Bid=28&id=162

        Input range is 180-360 VDC and output is up to 4800W continuous - 220VAC/26A. From what it looks like (It's tough to tell because the product description is in that awkwardly translated English), its meant to power irrigation equipment with no battery storage, so it's an "all or nothing" affair-either PV or AC from the grid/a generator. I would think that I could connect the DC inputs to the car and simply never use the AC inputs?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Badfish740 View Post
          I would not be comfortable running the car in the garage, of course, running it in the garage would have to mean removing all of the crap from the garage so that it could fit in the first place Nevertheless, I think removing a wheel is probably the most foolproof security measure possible. I suppose a thief could show up with his own Prius wheel and lugnuts, but unlikely. While you're still engaged in this thread, I'd love to get more of your thoughts on the Sunfine inverters. Browsing the site, I found this one, which does not have a battery charging feature which the previous one does:

          http://www.sunfinepower.com/en/Produ...?Bid=28&id=162

          Input range is 180-360 VDC and output is up to 4800W continuous - 220VAC/26A. From what it looks like (It's tough to tell because the product description is in that awkwardly translated English), its meant to power irrigation equipment with no battery storage, so it's an "all or nothing" affair-either PV or AC from the grid/a generator. I would think that I could connect the DC inputs to the car and simply never use the AC inputs?
          That would do as you think. It would not have the battery protections like the other models have for Low Voltage Disconnect.

          I need to correct what I stated about wiring in the post above. To use the Sunfine with just 220v only appliances, you would hook the sunfine L to L1 of the house and the Sunfine N to -L2 of the house. The sunfine N would not be connected to ground. Any 110v outlet that was connected would have the line hooked and the neutral floating. A bad situation. You would have to check what I say with an electrician. I am not an electrician and I doubt the sunfune would meet USA codes.

          I explored the Prius/hybrid generator just as you did and came up with the Sunfine. The more I got into it the more I relized that I was making things just too hard and complicated. I have decided to go the normal battery backup inverter/charger that everyone here would use. I would then use one or two of these based on about 50% to 70'% of generator output to charge my 48v system. The link is for 12v charging models but they make them for 48v as well if you go to the manufacture. http://store.evtv.me/products.php?cat=19 The Sunfine is a nice unit that is very efficient and easy to install. It comes with a built in MPPT charger as well. Which is nice, but does not come with the knowledge the USA based systems do.


          -YS

          Comment


          • #20
            I created some formulas here to help you decide how big an inverter you need from car to house. Also to determine how many dc amps for fuse and wire thickness. Usually 4 awg/guage is sufficient wire thickness from battery to inverter for 2kw to 3kw inverter. 2 awg is even safer.
            search amazon for the following:

            <links removed>

            you can cut these cables in half and use the quick connect between them.
            OR, if you dont want to work so hard use jumber cables between inverter and 12v car battery.

            Magic formulas
            formula 1: HV battery capacity (found below kwh) kwh / 1.1 = safe continuous kilowatt hours (Skwh) output or convert to watts - *1000=watts or Swh.
            (keeping it simple because watts are total power sum)

            formula 2: which dc fuse? = kwh/14v = car fuse amps. (14v is hom much is stepped down from HV battery - amount going to 12v battery)

            formula 3: How long between charges, based on Skwh wattage?
            skhw / 2 output = engine off 15 min then 3m to charge half full
            skhw / 4 output = engine off 30 min then 3m to charge half full
            skhw / 8 output = engine off 60 min then 3m to charge half full

            EXAMPLE
            2014 Lexus RX 450h:
            Safe KWH: 1.9kwh / 1.1 = 1.72kw (Skwh) or 1720w (Swh) safe watt hours continuous output.
            BATTERY TO INVERTER CAR FUSE = 1.9kwh / 14v = 136a car fuse.
            TIME BETWEEN ENGINE STARTS USING HALF WATTS:
            shw / 2 or 1720 / 2 = 860w inverter output (we are using half capacity). Based on formula above, engine should run for about 3 minutes after being off for the last 15 minutes. Then it will do the same in another 15m.

            USE THE SAME FORMULAS ABOVE FOR THE FOLLOWING CARS. -- HAVE FUN!

            Non
            Last edited by sdold; 05-09-2018, 12:19 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Mods please explain to all of us how someone that digs up a 3-year old post, in his first post SPAMS you with Links. New members do not get their first post up until approved.

              Only one explanation. One of the mods approved it. Which one of the mods is it?
              Last edited by sdold; 05-09-2018, 12:24 PM. Reason: Accidentally edited the wrong message, sorry Dereck
              MSEE, PE

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sunking
                Mods please explain to all of us how this can happen? A Spammer comes here and digs up a 3-year old thread, and on his very first post has SPAM links. It requires a Moderator or Admin to approve a new members 1st post.

                Only one explanation. A Moderator or Admin had to approve it. Let me guess Senjsi did it.
                But he used a old font and no apostrophe ....
                OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                  Mods please explain to all of us how someone that digs up a 3-year old post, in his first post SPAMS you with Links. New members do not get their first post up until approved.

                  Only one explanation. One of the mods approved it. Which one of the mods is it?
                  I deleted it, but reinstated it with the links removed, since it contains magic formulas that are hard to find anywhere else.
                  Last edited by sdold; 05-09-2018, 12:28 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by hybrid-home-power View Post
                    I created some formulas here to help you decide how big an inverter you need from car to house.
                    To be clear, he is talking about using 12V inverters, not the battery pack voltage.

                    There is a dangerous assumption here - that the EV's DC/DC converter can handle whatever load you ask of it. This is NOT the case, and you run the risk of damaging or destroying your DC/DC converter or starter battery.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I approved it originally, for the novelty of magical formulas. To me, the links looked like they went to amazon, when I hovered over them. I didn't follow them to see if they went elsewhere.
                      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by sdold View Post
                        I deleted it, but reinstated it with the links removed, since it contains magic formulas that are hard to find anywhere else.
                        You do know it is dangerous, and would void any vehicle warranty right?

                        MSEE, PE

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                          You do know it is dangerous, and would void any vehicle warranty right?
                          You mean you've never heard anyone say "hold my beer and watch this" ?

                          ALL this solar power stuff is DANGEROUS in the wrong hands. If the cost of solar power is some snowflakes melting, so be it.

                          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I am not a spammer. I simply came up with some great thoughts and formulas that I thought would be useful. I did not add any affiliate links so how would i make money unless i own Amazon?? Anyways no desire to argue with anyone.

                            In response to "There is a dangerous assumption here - that the EV's DC/DC converter can handle whatever load you ask of it."

                            My response: I imply no promises here and am not an expert. Yet I have personally tested on my own 2010 ford fusion hybrid. The formula would be
                            1400w / 1.1 = 1273w max recommended output. AND
                            1400 / 14 = 100 dc amp fuse.

                            In my actual test, my limit was reached as my readout coming from my 2000w pure sine wave inverter showed 1300 watts at 11.9 ac amps (which would be 119 dc amps) is what caused my inverter to temporarily shut down. By the way, I still have my fusion a year later with no problems whatsoever. Anyways, If I had used these formulas (which I figured out much later) then the fuse would have stopped output before my inverter even shut down.

                            So my response would be that there are no assumptions here. It's just math based on published kilowatt hours per vehicle, along with my personal tests which concur.

                            AND thank you jflorey2 for clarification. Yes, I am "talking about using 12V inverters, not the battery pack voltage." Well said sir.

                            And yes indeed SunKing, these type of usages could indeed void a warranty. So anyone must proceed with this warning in mind. Thank you SunKing for that reminder.

                            By the way, I just purchased a 2015 hybrid lexus suv. I will let you know the results of tests on it. And yes I know all about warranties and stuff but it's mine so I will do as I wish and suffer any potential consequences. Wish me luck if you are so inclined

                            By the way, newbee question here, can I edit previous posts if I need to make an update?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

                              You mean you've never heard anyone say "hold my beer and watch this" ?

                              ALL this solar power stuff is DANGEROUS in the wrong hands. If the cost of solar power is some snowflakes melting, so be it.
                              You think solar can be dangerous in snowflakes' hands, think about nukes. In all my days of designing equipment for nuclear power, I don't remember meeting too many snow flakes in a fission fired power plant. Maybe nukes do have some advantages in that they keep snowflakes out somehow.

                              No guts - no glory.

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