Price of oil

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • pleppik
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2014
    • 508

    #16
    Originally posted by Sunking
    You are talking about WW-II designs.
    Technically 1960's-era, since there weren't any commercial nuclear power plants in WWII, but what's a couple decades between friends...

    "We don't build nuclear reactors like this any more" is true, but I personally don't find it terribly comforting.

    The three major nuclear accidents in my lifetime (TMI, Chernobyl, Fukushima) were all caused by some combination of design flaws and operational errors. In other words, human error. It's possible to come up with safer designs, but it's not possible to eliminate human stupidity.

    Creating a controlled nuclear chain reaction is inherently dangerous. That's why we encase reactors in solid concrete chambers with 12-foot thick walls.

    Flying an airplane is also inherently dangerous, and we've had a lot of success improving the safety record of aviation (not perfect, but darn good). However, that safety has been at the cost of thousands of plane crashes over the years which have allowed us to find even the crazy and obscure failure modes and design around them.

    We can't afford the number of nuclear disasters it would take to discover the unknown failure modes (and that's assuming we fix them when we find them: you can make a pretty good argument that "giant earthquake followed by massive tsunami on the coast of Japan" is something the designers of the plant could have reasonably expected might happen someday).

    IMHO, the way to make "safe" nuclear power is not to design a plant which somehow can't fail, but to find a nuclear reaction path which doesn't create tons of highly radioactive byproducts. That way even a catastrophic failure would have far fewer consequences; the cost of failure could be acceptable. Thorium reactors, unfortunately, don't meet this criterion since they produce Uranium 233, Cesium 137, Strontium 190, and all the other nasty isotopes which make today's reactors such a problem.
    16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

    Comment

    • Sunking
      Solar Fanatic
      • Feb 2010
      • 23301

      #17
      Originally posted by pleppik
      Technically 1960's-era, since there weren't any commercial nuclear power plants in WWII, but what's a couple decades between friends...
      Might want to check your historical facts a bit closer. It took nuclear power to make the fissile material for the bombs we dropped in Japan. There were two plants built, one in Oak Ridge TN and another in Hanford Washington.
      MSEE, PE

      Comment

      • inetdog
        Super Moderator
        • May 2012
        • 9909

        #18
        Originally posted by Sunking
        Might want to check your historical facts a bit closer. It took nuclear power to make the fissile material for the bombs we dropped in Japan. There were two plants built, one in Oak Ridge TN and another in Hanford Washington.
        I think that you need to distinguish between reactors in power plants and reactors used solely or primarily to breed different fissionable materials.
        One of the two bombs dropped used plutonium from a breeder reactor while the other used separated U235 from natural uranium ore.

        The original primary activity at Oak Ridge was to separate U235 from u238, which was a purely chemical mechanical process that required a lot of electric power. And that power came from the TVA dams.

        The X-10 pile at Oak Ridge (circa 1943) was the second pile operational (after Fermi's in Chicago) and its primary goal was to breed plutonium 239 for bomb use. As a very low level side effect it was also used to generate power and actually lit a light bulb, but it would be stretching it to call it a nuclear power plant.

        Similarly the B reactor at Hanford (circa 1944) was designed to produce plutonium, but the power for the rest of the processing operation came mainly from the hydroelectric plant at the Grand Coulee Dam.

        The first civilian nuclear power was produced at a plant in Idaho in 1951, but even that was a breeder reactor which produced fissionable materials as a by product.

        The Hiroshima bomb (Little Boy) was a uranium bomb and did not make use of any material from the X10 pile, while the Nagasaki bomb (Fat Man) was a plutonium bomb whose raw material was indeed produced in one or more breeder reactors.
        SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

        Comment

        • pleppik
          Solar Fanatic
          • Feb 2014
          • 508

          #19
          Originally posted by Sunking
          Might want to check your historical facts a bit closer. It took nuclear power to make the fissile material for the bombs we dropped in Japan. There were two plants built, one in Oak Ridge TN and another in Hanford Washington.
          The Manhattan Project reactors weren't commercial.

          The first electricity-producing nuclear power plant was built in 1954 in the USSR. Being owned by the communists, I would say it wasn't "commercial" in the sense of being owned by a private entity. The first truly commercial nuclear power plant was built in 1956 in England, and the first commercial plant in the US was in 1957.

          So there were no commercial nuclear reactors until a full decade after WWII, and the reactors at Fukushima were built in the late 60's and early 70's based on a 1960's design (GE's Mark 1).
          16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

          Comment

          • SunEagle
            Super Moderator
            • Oct 2012
            • 15123

            #20
            Originally posted by inetdog
            I think that you need to distinguish between reactors in power plants and reactors used solely or primarily to breed different fissionable materials.
            One of the two bombs dropped used plutonium from a breeder reactor while the other used separated U235 from natural uranium ore.

            The original primary activity at Oak Ridge was to separate U235 from u238, which was a purely chemical mechanical process that required a lot of electric power. And that power came from the TVA dams.

            The X-10 pile at Oak Ridge (circa 1943) was the second pile operational (after Fermi's in Chicago) and its primary goal was to breed plutonium 239 for bomb use. As a very low level side effect it was also used to generate power and actually lit a light bulb, but it would be stretching it to call it a nuclear power plant.

            Similarly the B reactor at Hanford (circa 1944) was designed to produce plutonium, but the power for the rest of the processing operation came mainly from the hydroelectric plant at the Grand Coulee Dam.

            The first civilian nuclear power was produced at a plant in Idaho in 1951, but even that was a breeder reactor which produced fissionable materials as a by product.

            The Hiroshima bomb (Little Boy) was a uranium bomb and did not make use of any material from the X10 pile, while the Nagasaki bomb (Fat Man) was a plutonium bomb whose raw material was indeed produced in one or more breeder reactors.
            Interesting history lesson. It is also interesting to see both the Oak Ridge and Hanford "nuclear" facility were powered by a Renewable energy source. "Hydro".

            Comment

            • ver2go
              Junior Member
              • Oct 2014
              • 15

              #21
              Yes, interesting thread.

              Comment

              • Sunking
                Solar Fanatic
                • Feb 2010
                • 23301

                #22
                Originally posted by ver2go
                Yes, interesting thread.
                Keep an eye on this guy, looks like a scum bag.
                MSEE, PE

                Comment

                • ver2go
                  Junior Member
                  • Oct 2014
                  • 15

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Sunking
                  Keep an eye on this guy, looks like a scum bag.
                  I was trying to get my post count up so I can get a PM
                  If you are a homeowner who is about to put a solar panel system on your home or you are a newbie to the solar market, get started here! A non-technical forum to help you understand the in's and out's of solar.


                  Since there was no general introduction board, and I did find the thread interesting I replied to it. But scumbag is a bit harsh considering I do see active spammers on this board

                  Comment

                  • inetdog
                    Super Moderator
                    • May 2012
                    • 9909

                    #24
                    Originally posted by ver2go
                    I was trying to get my post count up so I can get a PM
                    If you are a homeowner who is about to put a solar panel system on your home or you are a newbie to the solar market, get started here! A non-technical forum to help you understand the in's and out's of solar.


                    Since there was no general introduction board, .... But scumbag is a bit harsh considering I do see active spammers on this board
                    Well, you have your 10 posts now, so you are good to go.

                    Also, did you not look under General Discussion to find the topic
                    "New members, please introduce yourselves here"?

                    Scumbag is actually quite a mild characterization from Dereck (Sunking), so just filter that out and look for the good practical advice he gives instead.

                    Also, active spammers rarely last longer than one post, and you may not even see that one before the Moderators jump on it.
                    The alternative is to require the first few posts of all members to be approved by a Mod, and that seems to be more work than it is worth at this time.
                    SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

                    Comment

                    • Mike90250
                      Moderator
                      • May 2009
                      • 16020

                      #25
                      Originally posted by ver2go
                      Yes, interesting thread.
                      Yes, interesting thread
                      Looks nice
                      Informative post
                      Thanks for the advice

                      are often the one-liners used by spammers to get THEIR post counts up. So, thems the keywords we all key on, for watching a new poster, with some inane comment with no coherence to the thread.

                      And, as was pointed out, there is a general board
                      Just registered with Solar Panel Talk? Make your first post here by introducing yourself!Then post your question or comment in one of the categories below.

                      Just registered with Solar Panel Talk? Make your first post here by introducing yourself!Then post your question or comment in one of the categories below.

                      We're just doing our jobs
                      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                      Comment

                      Working...