Permit when panel is very near at the edge of the roof

[CA_Tom]

So Tom you may be one of the few that can do it yourself but if my comments have insulted you then maybe you are a little too thin skinned.

Insulted? No.
If you want to insult me, I would suggest starting with an assertion that my father had an odor of elderberries.

But I think a 98% failure rate is too high an estimate for number of people who start on such a project and don't finish it. (And 99.9% is just laughable)
And furthermore it's just sad that this forum has a number of people who seem to think that the vast majority of people that would begin such a project are incapable of doing it.

Sure I'm probably well above average for dealing with housewiring and such. But it's not like people with less experience and/or skill than me would be unable to do it if they wanted to. I mean my install is a little worse than most, requiring a new panel/meter. But if you're not dealing with that added complexity (something which I would usually have hired out myself, but this time tackled myself) then it's IMO about the same complexity as rewiring a kitchen.

[SunEagle]

Insulted? No.
If you want to insult me, I would suggest starting with an assertion that my father had an odor of elderberries.

But I think a 98% failure rate is too high an estimate for number of people who start on such a project and don't finish it. (And 99.9% is just laughable)
And furthermore it's just sad that this forum has a number of people who seem to think that the vast majority of people that would begin such a project are incapable of doing it.

Sure I'm probably well above average for dealing with housewiring and such. But it's not like people with less experience and/or skill than me would be unable to do it if they wanted to. I mean my install is a little worse than most, requiring a new panel/meter. But if you're not dealing with that added complexity (something which I would usually have hired out myself, but this time tackled myself) then it's IMO about the same complexity as rewiring a kitchen.

My father likes his wine also.

Again maybe I am being too pessimistic with my numbers. I had 30 electricians working for me in an industrial facility and a very high percentage would struggle with some parts of the design and installation of a grid tie pv system. Sure most could do the wiring and terminations in their sleep but understanding building codes (like wind loading calculations) and Fire codes would be a stretch for most. There are just very few people that know the Building, Electric and Fire codes enough to create the design and perform the total installation that the local inspector would sign off on.

[Helmut]

I had 30 electricians working for me in an industrial facility and a very high percentage would struggle with some parts of the design and installation of a grid tie pv system.

Of course they would struggle because they have never do PV (photovoltaik) bevor. Only supermans don`t have any problems to reach new land.
Be glad that they don´t leave you to be self-employed building PV-Systems. ( I belive good people can make much money now in USA with PV till the 30% tax credit would be cut. After that it is going on but with only hard work for normal Money)

Al peaces of PV-Instalation for itself are relativ simple (Mayby not the bureaucracy for PV in USA, that i must learn).
It is the combination from making mechanikel, electric, working on a Roof, bureaucracy that make it tricky. Of course this is not for everybody.
But when you are not a dummy you know what you can do and what you not can do.

[russ]

My father likes his wine also.

Again maybe I am being too pessimistic with my numbers. I had 30 electricians working for me in an industrial facility and a very high percentage would struggle with some parts of the design and installation of a grid tie pv system. Sure most could do the wiring and terminations in their sleep but understanding building codes (like wind loading calculations) and Fire codes would be a stretch for most. There are just very few people that know the Building, Electric and Fire codes enough to create the design and perform the total installation that the local inspector would sign off on.

You got it - lots think they do but I would not want to buy a house most of them have worked on.

[Helmut]

Hi guys
You are painting a picture that nearly everbody in USA is a dummy. That can not be true! I think the amount of dummys and smart People are roughly al the same in the world.

Let me talk from the viewing of an small country that install years ago the bulk of PV-worldproduction an where it is now hard to find a big roof in rual areas that is not full of PV-Panels.
We have had the same discussion: Many talk and warning that pv ist so difficult that only companys with experience could do it. But their was no experience! Al companys with "Name" and big advertisment struggel in the same way like small 1-5 People companys. But the bigs died first because they were to expensive.

In germany for pv we need nearly no Permit and their is on the roof and the DC side of elektric praktical no controlation.
Belive it or belive it not: We don`t have "Sodom and Gomorra"
No significant working injuries and only small among of technical fail. Granted their are some economic fails of solar Systems. But that was not a Problem from selfinstallers but rather a Problem from People who belive and trust companys with apparent know how.

And you in USA have an Advantage as related to make it right special for self installer : much time.
Let me explain. In Germany in past years it was always a war against time cuting the value you get for the produce elektric (We don`t have netmetering, we sell the electric for a stated Price. That is the kind of subsidy). It was always looking so: You must be finisch till ... when not is the projekt not economic. In realness it was economic after that also because of lower Price for the Panels. But at that time nobody pageant that.

For our small pv-projekt in California i see only one Deadline: The end of netmetering but after that it would be also going on with Batterie when they might be much cheaper.
I`m not affraid of cutting the 30% tax credit. I`m, sure when this happend the price´s fall in the same amount. We have in Germany similar the same wages. And you can get here a 10kW PV-system complete for under 1,3 Euro/Watt with middel class grade of components. That was about 1,625$/watt. At yery big roofs like factories you can get down to 1 Euro per watt, with low class grade of components when an extra Transformer is not needed .
In the average it is a little more expensive. But when you paid 20% more that must be important reasons like spezial roof, new electric stuff at AC because it is very old .
And this ist the full price at al made by Company!
And we have no incentives at that! Our incentives/Subvention for PV is only that we get guaranteed money for 20 Years for the electric that was produced.

Helmut

[SunEagle]

Hi guys
You are painting a picture that nearly everbody in USA is a dummy. That can not be true! I think the amount of dummys and smart People are roughly al the same in the world.

Let me talk from the viewing of an small country that install years ago the bulk of PV-worldproduction an where it is now hard to find a big roof in rual areas that is not full of PV-Panels.
We have had the same discussion: Many talk and warning that pv ist so difficult that only companys with experience could do it. But their was no experience! Al companys with "Name" and big advertisment struggel in the same way like small 1-5 People companys. But the bigs died first because they were to expensive.

In germany for pv we need nearly no Permit and their is on the roof and the DC side of elektric praktical no controlation.
Belive it or belive it not: We don`t have "Sodom and Gomorra"
No significant working injuries and only small among of technical fail. Granted their are some economic fails of solar Systems. But that was not a Problem from selfinstallers but rather a Problem from People who belive and trust companys with apparent know how.

And you in USA have an Advantage as related to make it right special for self installer : much time.
Let me explain. In Germany in past years it was always a war against time cuting the value you get for the produce elektric (We don`t have netmetering, we sell the electric for a stated Price. That is the kind of subsidy). It was always looking so: You must be finisch till ... when not is the projekt not economic. In realness it was economic after that also because of lower Price for the Panels. But at that time nobody pageant that.

For our small pv-projekt in California i see only one Deadline: The end of netmetering but after that it would be also going on with Batterie when they might be much cheaper.
I`m not affraid of cutting the 30% tax credit. I`m, sure when this happend the price´s fall in the same amount. We have in Germany similar the same wages. And you can get here a 10kW PV-system complete for under 1,3 Euro/Watt with middel class grade of components. That was about 1,625$/watt. At yery big roofs like factories you can get down to 1 Euro per watt, with low class grade of components when an extra Transformer is not needed .
In the average it is a little more expensive. But when you paid 20% more that must be important reasons like spezial roof, new electric stuff at AC because it is very old .
And this ist the full price at al made by Company!
And we have no incentives at that! Our incentives/Subvention for PV is only that we get guaranteed money for 20 Years for the electric that was produced.

Helmut

I'm not saying that "everyone" in the USA are dummies. I am trying to explain that due to the complexity and ever changing code requirements due to politics and POCO involvement there are very few people that really understand what needs to be done to fully perform a safe and working solar pv grid tie system. There are a lot of smart and experience trades people in the USA and many can perform over 90% of the install but a lot of people believe that last 10% is not required or have no idea what is involved. The people that don't follow all of the requirements either break the law or install something that may not be safe.

I would hesitate with the roof mounting system because of the hurricane and wind load requirements for Florida and I do not have the proper drafting tools to develop "installation" drawings for the permit. I can easily perform all of the wiring for pv system but due to Florida law I can't because I am not a licensed electrician and also do not process a legal Solar PV Install License. While this requirement may not be needed in other states there are rules that need to be followed or your install will not be approved by the local inspector.

As for California. Besides the standard Electrical, Fire and Building codes what about seismic? What has to be included in the installed to pass any earthquake mitigation?

I support and encourage anyone that has both the experience and knowledge to perform the full installation. From my 40 years of project management experience around the USA I would say the percentage of people that can do that is very small.

[J.P.M.]

Not everyone in the U.S. is a dummy, but IMO, dumb to smart, or perhaps better said the non thinking to thinking ratio of the population is approaching or past the tipping point and, as a nation, we're headed into the toilet. I feel as if I'm watching a very slow motion train wreck.

[russ]

Not everyone in the U.S. is a dummy, but IMO, dumb to smart, or perhaps better said the non thinking to thinking ratio of the population is approaching or past the tipping point and, as a nation, we're headed into the toilet. I feel as if I'm watching a very slow motion train wreck.

I think the teetertoter tipped long back!

[Helmut]

Besides the standard Electrical, Fire and Building codes what about seismic?

I would bet a pv-System that survive an normal heavy storm would withstand every thinkable earthquake. The house where it is building on the roof crushes much earlyer.
Please do not invent Problems where no Problems exist.
I hope everybody accords with me, that there is more need to look at the earthquakesafty of nuklear plants then on pv-Systems.

[russ]

I hope everybody accords with me, that there is more need to look at the earthquakesafty of nuklear plants then on pv-Systems.

Get off that BS - earthquake resistance of nuclear plants is studied in great detail. The Japs messed it up due to the yes man culture. A number of us here are pro nuclear just so you realize.

[J.P.M.]

I would bet a pv-System that survive an normal heavy storm would withstand every thinkable earthquake. The house where it is building on the roof crushes much earlyer.
Please do not invent Problems where no Problems exist.
I hope everybody accords with me, that there is more need to look at the earthquakesafty of nuklear plants then on pv-Systems.

You may think that, but a lot of building codes and municipalities and building depts. don't care what you, or I, or most anyone else may think about it. Seismic and wind, and other dynamic and static loading considerations are a necessary and fundamental part of any design effort, regardless of size, from rooftop solar up to large, centralized power generating facilities and refineries. Having been involved in the design of a few chemical process systems in the EU and particularly Germany, I believe such a design philosophy or some version of it applies there as well.

Problems are not invented. Without planning they will find you. Hopefully, good design will head off some, or at least the most catastrophic, if not all of them. Quantity of damage, including personal injury and loss of life, is only one part of the considerations. Quality of design, including safety, is a size independent mandate.

[Helmut]

Get off that BS - earthquake resistance of nuclear plants is studied in great detail. The Japs messed it up due to the yes man culture. A number of us here are pro nuclear just so you realize.

Sorry i don`t want to make dispute. But on the one Hand USA go down because... . But on the second Hand you think your nuklear plants are save, only the other countrys have people that are to silly to work with nuklear. I think that is an contradiction.

[J.P.M.]

Sorry i don`t want to make dispute. But on the one Hand USA go down because... . But on the second Hand you think your nuklear plants a save only the other contrys have people that are to silly to work with nuklear. I think that is an contradiction.

Most things are not all or nothing. The U.S. appears to some to be dumbing down beyond recognition while the U.S. higher education system is quite highly regarded with foreign students flocking here. All the while, the U.S. high school graduation rate plummets. Go figure.

[russ]

Sorry i don`t want to make dispute. But on the one Hand USA go down because... . But on the second Hand you think your nuklear plants a save only the other contrys have people that are to silly to work with nuklear. I think that is an contradiction.

Nothing of that sort has been said - you are trying to read your agenda into other people's words.

The average dip **** (be he German, Japanese, American or French is not qualified to design and install a solar PV system.

People working on nuclear plant design are highly qualified engineers in what ever country.

Fukashima management ignored engineers warnings of design deficiencies - because the boss said all was well. Japanese culture is at fault there.

I spent a lifetime working in many countries around the world with people from more countries yet. Every group has their good points and weaknesses.

[russ]

Most things are not all or nothing. The U.S. appears to some to be dumbing down beyond recognition while the U.S. higher education system is quite highly regarded with foreign students flocking here. All the while, the U.S. high school graduation rate plummets. Go figure.

Too many kids encouraged to take the easy way and keep a hand out for a free ride.