Should we have a Hybrid Solar section?

[SunEagle]

What bothers me is people do not understand what is going on.

If you want power when the grid is down for any extended length of time requires a generator period. It requires a portion of your panels to run through a charge controller. If it requires a generator why in the hell do they want to spend the big bucks on a hybrid system for such limited power. They don't understand they have to rewire their homes for a small 60 amp Emergency panel. Save yourelf a ton of cash, buy a whole house generator and life goes on with everything like Air Conditioning, hot water, heat, cooking and let your dang neighbors suffer.

Secondly selling power back to the POCO from your batteries is really stupid. Why on earth would you make a product (Kwh) that cost you 60 to 85-cents (battery cost alone), and then sell it for a loss at 10 to 15-cents. People like that should not be allowed to vote.

I agree it makes no sense to you and me to use a battery system as an emergency backup power.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people that believe to be "green" they shouldn't use a generator. They also believe that since they have all them solar panels already they should be able to use them to provide power even if the grid goes down.

Both those lines of thinking are flawed because using batteries will never be "Green". And the cost to use those panels when the grid goes down to charge batteries will not save them any money.

[Mike90250]

The "greenest" scenario is with the SMA secure power option, Grid Tie inverter, you get a 5Kw GT inverter, and if the grid goes down, you have a 1.5Kw outlet you can get power from on sunny days. from 10am -2pm, maybe till 4pm in summer, depending.

No batteries, no lights after dark.

And then you have variations with inverter generators like the honda EU series, 2 days of lights and a fan for 4 gallons of gas. Or an adapter kit for your propane tank.

[paulcheung]

What bothers me is people do not understand what is going on.

If you want power when the grid is down for any extended length of time requires a generator period. It requires a portion of your panels to run through a charge controller. If it requires a generator why in the hell do they want to spend the big bucks on a hybrid system for such limited power. They don't understand they have to rewire their homes for a small 60 amp Emergency panel. Save yourelf a ton of cash, buy a whole house generator and life goes on with everything like Air Conditioning, hot water, heat, cooking and let your dang neighbors suffer.

Secondly selling power back to the POCO from your batteries is really stupid. Why on earth would you make a product (Kwh) that cost you 60 to 85-cents (battery cost alone), and then sell it for a loss at 10 to 15-cents. People like that should not be allowed to vote.

It is just human mentalty, they know what is going on. just that they believe since they bought the panels and the sun is shinnng, they should have power, they hate to see the panels is there and they don't produce anything.

[solar pete]

Hi All,

Really like this thread, I like the idea of a hybrid-solar section so I think I will knock one up, any and all opinions are greatly appreciated.

I think we need to start with a bit of a definition, that will probably evolve over time.

My brother is currently thinking about a hybrid system he is going to install at his house and we have been looking at various batteries and inverter combo's. I will get the details on line when they are more together, some input would be awesome.

We are looking to do a 30kW hybrid system that will essentially be 3 seperate 10kW systems as we want to try out 3 different battery's and inverter setups, so we can get our own numbers. The battery bunker has been built and some framework for about 80 panels has been put up, I'll get some photo's when I go up there next.

P.S I work for the same company that runs solar panel talk and solarreviews.com (this seems to make some people happier)

P.Sx2 Why do you need a genny to set up a hybrid system, total bs, it all depends on what your objectives for the system are, surely.

[Sunking]

It is just human mentalty, they know what is going on. just that they believe since they bought the panels and the sun is shinnng, they should have power, they hate to see the panels is there and they don't produce anything.

That would be Grid Tied with a Emergency whole house generator.

[Sunking]

P.Sx2 Why do you need a genny to set up a hybrid system, total bs,

As you are connected to the grid (thats right isnt it?) you don't need to design for worst case scenarios, the grid is also your battery. So all you need to do is get a solar system, a largish one from the amount of kilowatt hours you use then determine how many usable kilowatt hours you want to be able to access every night from your batteries, if you exceed that number you simply switch back to the grid. In the event of a black out you will be able to access the amount of kilowatt hours you have allowed for then you will need to turn on the generator if the grids not back up.

So which is it Pete? You are talking out both sides of your mouth. But I get it as you have admitted to be firmly vested in solar trying to sell people stuff.

[SunEagle]

Hi All,

Really like this thread, I like the idea of a hybrid-solar section so I think I will knock one up, any and all opinions are greatly appreciated.

I think we need to start with a bit of a definition, that will probably evolve over time.

My brother is currently thinking about a hybrid system he is going to install at his house and we have been looking at various batteries and inverter combo's. I will get the details on line when they are more together, some input would be awesome.

We are looking to do a 30kW hybrid system that will essentially be 3 seperate 10kW systems as we want to try out 3 different battery's and inverter setups, so we can get our own numbers. The battery bunker has been built and some framework for about 80 panels has been put up, I'll get some photo's when I go up there next.

P.S I work for the same company that runs solar panel talk and solarreviews.com (this seems to make some people happier)

P.Sx2 Why do you need a genny to set up a hybrid system, total bs, it all depends on what your objectives for the system are, surely.

You may feel that a gen set is not needed for a solar battery system but I wouldn't call wanting one BS.

While you might not have extended days without sun where you live most of the US can experience no solar for days and with major weather issues also no grid power. So unless you have some other way to recharge the batteries a gen set is not only good insurance but has the ability to provide power for loads that might exceed a small battery bank. So IMO not BS.

[J.P.M.]

Hi All,

Really like this thread, I like the idea of a hybrid-solar section so I think I will knock one up, any and all opinions are greatly appreciated.

I think we need to start with a bit of a definition, that will probably evolve over time.

My brother is currently thinking about a hybrid system he is going to install at his house and we have been looking at various batteries and inverter combo's. I will get the details on line when they are more together, some input would be awesome.

We are looking to do a 30kW hybrid system that will essentially be 3 seperate 10kW systems as we want to try out 3 different battery's and inverter setups, so we can get our own numbers. The battery bunker has been built and some framework for about 80 panels has been put up, I'll get some photo's when I go up there next.

P.S I work for the same company that runs solar panel talk and solarreviews.com (this seems to make some people happier)

P.Sx2 Why do you need a genny to set up a hybrid system, total bs, it all depends on what your objectives for the system are, surely.

On P.S 1: Some people (maybe besides me) might think disclosure of skin in the game is the right thing to do, but what leads you to think that some people can be made happier because you work for the same company that runs Solar Panel Talk and Solarreviews.com ?

On P.S. 2: If, as you seem to be saying, having a generator in a hybrid system depends on objectives, then it sounds like you're implying that it's OK at least some of the time. If that's correct, how can it then also be "total" bs ?

[russ]

This comes back to the basic problem all RE suffers - cost effective storage. At present there is none except large scale hydro and that is not open for individual use.

Without cost effective storage, hybrid systems are a rich man's toy - they make no sense at all from a financial point of view. If one's name is Gaets, Buffett or Ellison then no problem.

Hybrid systems also have zero, zip, nada to do with being green. That are not!

The only system that makes sense for 99% of us with grid available is grid tie.

10,000$ or more of batteries installed and no generator? Come on Pete!

[paulcheung]

Well if the grid is not too shabby, the generator won't be necessary.

[SunEagle]

Well if the grid is not too shabby, the generator won't be necessary.

If the grid is reliable then why go with a battery hybrid system?

Paul, I can understand the need for you to go that way but in most cases wouldn't a generator be less expensive as the power back up then a set of batteries?

I like the idea and believe there is a place for Hybrid systems someday, but until someone designs a low cost energy storage system, the current types of batteries are nothing more than a costly adder for the home owner that has a grid tie pv system.

[paulcheung]

Yes by all means the grid tie with generator is the most cost efficient way. But these people are keep beating the dead horse about hybrid solar for reasonable price. I just can't see it even in my circumstances. If the grid is not reliable then go full off grid or grid assist so I call it. (we use off grid and because we have unreliable grid we size the battery bank small and shut off the inverter go back to the grid when battery reach to Low battery cutoff level.)

[BMAD]

Hybrid is good, I think you should have a separate section for it! I will be Grid tied with battery backup. I have plans
to acquire a better battery setup. Last winter we had 2 ice storms here in TN. Both times we had power outages. For me
the longest was only 14 hours. My biggest concern was heat - I have Gas furnace, but it requires 120 volts to run the blower
fan. That won't be a continuous load and may come on twice in an hour. I can live without hot water, TV, microwave etc. but its
great to be able to supply the power needed to run the minimal few items to make everyone comfortable. Yeah batteries aren't
cheap, but those of that want them will get them! Yeah I have 2 generators, a 5500 watt dual phase and a Yamaha 2000 watt
for small loads! I can improvise if needed! If the power goes out refrigeration, heat would be important. I have a lot of quetions
that I would like to get answered, mostly about batteries! If I where forced into an off grid situation I would make the best
of what I have! Remember with generators, they only work when you have fuel to feed them with! Solar renews itself most every day!

Bill in TN

[Mike90250]

....

P.Sx2 Why do you need a genny to set up a hybrid system, total bs, it all depends on what your objectives for the system are, surely.

Which is the outcome you would like ?

Scenario #1 Winter ice storm.
Lines down, poles snapped off by the hundreds, 2 weeks to truck in new poles Your rooftop panels are coated in 1" of ice, and the weather is forecast cloudy for the next 3 days. Your $12,000 battery bank took over last night keeping the heat pump on for you, but this AM, there is no sun and batteries are 60% depleted (40% remaining) In the next 2 days, your batteries irreversibly sulfate and loose half their capacity. You can run 2 lights for the next 3 days, then the sun comes out, melts your panel ice, and starts charging the batteries (which are now down to about 20% remaining) Just lost 3 years off the 6 year battery life ($6000).

#2, same storm, you have a $3,000 auto-start propane genset, and you hear it start up at 3 am when the batteries get low. You yawn and go back to sleep. The genset runs intermittently the next 3 weeks till the power comes back on, and you continue back feeding the grid. impact to your batteries, nil, propane billl and an oil change $200, and you were mostly comfortable except there was no internet or cable TV for 3 weeks.

You can spend lots more $$ for a larger battery bank, that won't sag below 70% for 3 days.. That's going to cost you a lot more than a $3000 genset and some fuel. And your solar will still not run "everything" for the 3 weeks.

It's all a choice.

If you have a small, expendable battery bank, and just need to keep the beer cold, then there is a lot less skin in the game, and you don't need the generator.

[SunEagle]

Hybrid is good, I think you should have a separate section for it! I will be Grid tied with battery backup. I have plans
to acquire a better battery setup. Last winter we had 2 ice storms here in TN. Both times we had power outages. For me
the longest was only 14 hours. My biggest concern was heat - I have Gas furnace, but it requires 120 volts to run the blower
fan. That won't be a continuous load and may come on twice in an hour. I can live without hot water, TV, microwave etc. but its
great to be able to supply the power needed to run the minimal few items to make everyone comfortable. Yeah batteries aren't
cheap, but those of that want them will get them! Yeah I have 2 generators, a 5500 watt dual phase and a Yamaha 2000 watt
for small loads! I can improvise if needed! If the power goes out refrigeration, heat would be important. I have a lot of quetions
that I would like to get answered, mostly about batteries! If I where forced into an off grid situation I would make the best
of what I have! Remember with generators, they only work when you have fuel to feed them with! Solar renews itself most every day!

Bill in TN

Sure Solar will provide some amount of energy almost every day. If used wisely a generator using fossil fuel can run for many days and with multiple fuel type generators you have more options and sources.

Batteries on the other hand start to die the minute you put them on the shelf. It is like a leaky faucet. Their life will slowly (or quickly depending on their care) drip away even if you do not put them to use. So their "backup value" slowly erodes over time until when you need them the most they fail.

While a standby generator only needs to be exercised periodically and can be used for many days continuously if and when needed so fuel cost can be minimized. With proper care a gen set will last many times the lifespan of batteries so to me is a better investment as an emergency power backup then batteries.