Calling All DIY'ers....What is Your Cost of Production?

[russ]

Just trying to get this thread back on track.

I did some back of the envelope calcs and on paper, and tried virtually installing my system from the least expensive parts available in today's dollars. I came up with 3.8 cents a kWh which compares to the 5.8 cents kWh two years ago. Both calcs include the 30% tax credit, no subsidies and no labor. The virtual system was not over engineered but complied with NEC code and safe building standards.

Show the math then.

Your costs for coal fired power are total BS it looks like to me.

[DanS26]

Show the math then.

Your costs for coal fired power are total BS it looks like to me.

I don't have the math for all coal fired plants, but I do have the Annual Report from Hoosier Energy for fiscal year 2013.

Almost all of their energy is produced by coal power. Their cost of production is 2.5 cents per kWH. They sell on average to 18 Indiana and Illinois REMCs at 7.5 cents per kWH. You can see it, they are a public company.

See page 41:

http://www.hepn.com/assets/files/2013HEAnnualReport.pdf

[DanS26]

Was that including shipping, any sales tax you have, permit fees, and expected replacement parts? All that came close to $1500 on mine.

Personally, I'd call the tax credit a subsidy, especially if I was the guy without solar panels

Yes, all in out of pocket costs plus two future inverter replacements, offset only by the 30% tax credit.

Now I would never install the cheapest parts, but it is interesting how low you can go.

[sundug]

My 4.6KW DIY install

Here's my self installed 4.6KW grid tie micro inverter $1.60 a watt total system install step by step- http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...ougEnphase.htm
And here's my Enphase page-
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/...tems/dpBj53033
Sundug-29 years in self built passive solar home-25 years DIY SHW
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...gsProjects.htm

[russ]

I don't have the math for all coal fired plants, but I do have the Annual Report from Hoosier Energy for fiscal year 2013.

Almost all of their energy is produced by coal power. Their cost of production is 2.5 cents per kWH. They sell on average to 18 Indiana and Illinois REMCs at 7.5 cents per kWH. You can see it, they are a public company.

See page 41:

http://www.hepn.com/assets/files/2013HEAnnualReport.pdf

All I see directly stated there is a Members average cost of 69.13$ per mWh -

Without reading the entire document it is not possible to tell what that includes.

[DanS26]

Here's my self installed 4.6KW grid tie micro inverter $1.60 a watt total system install step by step- http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...ougEnphase.htm
And here's my Enphase page-
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/...tems/dpBj53033
Sundug-29 years in self built passive solar home-25 years DIY SHW
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...gsProjects.htm

Doug, great DIY project.

Not knowing your insolation in TN, but I can guess your cost of production is somewhere in the 5 to 6 cents per kWh. What is nice about the COP metric is that once you know it you can make good financial decisions on how you use your excess production. Most solar producers in the Midwest are not on the "net metering" scheme, so it makes sense to use as much of your production internally rather than sell it at wholesale or less.

For example...gas or electric appliances? How much will it cost to charge my EV internally?....you get the idea.

I can only guess how many DIY'ers you have inspired...good work.

Dan

p.s. Did you ever get that switched neutral fixed?

[russ]

Not knowing your insolation in TN, but I can guess your cost of production is somewhere in the 5 to 6 cents per kWh. What is nice about the COP metric is that once you know it you can make good financial decisions on how you use your excess production.

From PV Watts for nearby for a 1 kW DC system - they estimate 19 cents per kWh. Right with the cost you can make good financial decisions - but it does take correct costs - not pie in the sky stuff. Grid power is shown at 10 cents per kWh.

RESULTS

3.11	82	9
4.07	95	10
4.70	118	12
5.67	134	14
5.86	139	15
6.20	140	15
6.25	143	15
6.04	139	15
5.26	119	13
5.07	123	13
3.57	86	9
2.89	75	8
4.89	1,393	$ 148

Find A Local Installer Download Results: Monthly | Hourly
* Caution: Photovoltaic system performance predictions calculated by PVWatts® include many inherent assumptions and uncertainties and do not reflect variations between PV technologies nor site-specific characteristics except as represented by PVWatts® inputs. For example, PV modules with better performance are not differentiated within PVWatts® from lesser performing modules. Similarly, the “Energy Value” column simply multiplies the utility-average electricity price by production. Complex utility rates and financing can significantly impact the energy value. See Help for additional guidance.

Requested Location	Waynesboro, tn
Weather Data Source	(TMY2) HUNTSVILLE, AL 72 mi
Latitude	34.65° N
Longitude	86.77° W
DC System Size	1 kW
Module Type	Standard
Array Type	Fixed (open rack)
Array Tilt	20°
Array Azimuth	180°
System Losses	14%
Inverter Efficiency	96%
DC to AC Size Ratio	1.1
Average Cost of Electricity Purchased from Utility	0.10 $/kWh
Initial Cost	3.30 $/Wdc
Cost of Electricity Generated by System	0.19 $/kWh

These values can be compared to get an idea of the cost-effectiveness of this system. However, system costs, system financing options (including 3rd party ownership) and complex utility rates can significantly change the relative value of the PV system.

[DanS26]

[QUOTE=russ;130055]From PV Watts for nearby for a 1 kW DC system - they estimate 19 cents per kWh. Right with the cost you can make good financial decisions - but it does take correct costs - not pie in the sky stuff. Grid power is shown at 10 cents per kWh.


They are using $3.30/Wdc....Doug's system is $1.60/Wdc..that cuts the COP to $.09. Now they don't disclose system life, if they use something less than 25 years it explains the rest.

[russ]

Dan - Only when your neighbor pays the bill do you get what you claim. Net parity and the great costs HAVE to be without subsidies, incentives etc.

[DanS26]

Dan - Only when your neighbor pays the bill do you get what you claim. Net parity and the great costs HAVE to be without subsidies, incentives etc.

I think we all are looking for a level playing floor.

The point of this thread is to calculate and use a cost of production metric to see how you stand in the market place. You go with what you got or what someone gives you...its the American way.

We can complain about the subsidies and give-a-ways in ALL industries, but it is what it is until its changed.

So the fact is, that a DIY type person here in the Midwest, with the necessary skills can install and operate a distributed generation plant TODAY, that is competitive in the marketplace with the large caveat that you do not count your own labor. If you have to pay somebody to do this work for you, then I totally agree, we're not there yet (unless you can get some crazy money from CA or NJ).

IMO we should be encouraging the DIY type person.

[DanS26]

Sounds easy huh? It usually takes a person two years of a trade schools and 5 years of apprenticeship to get a decent grasp of electrical codes. Some never get it.

Sunking, when I first started reading the NEC code book it was sometimes hard to understand. It's like a cook book only instead of all the ingredients and instructions on one page, they are spread out over hundreds of pages (the 2014 NFPA 70 is 910 pages long). Some people say it is written in greek, but like most complicated subjects you have understand the "language" first.

[russ]

IMO we should be encouraging the DIY type person.

Yep - a couple percent of the population is interested in solar to begin with and of that few percent a few percent are interested or capable of DIY.

[sensij]

Anyone who views discount rates and present value analysis as "too complicated" is not, in my opinion, someone who should be taken seriously on matters of financial decision making. DIY PV systems can be less expensive than professionally installed systems, if the time spent to learn how to do it and perform the labor is valued at nothing. That might be appropriate for some people, but does not generalize to a large population. The costs associated with DIY PV systems can be competitive with the costs incurred by buying electricity from the Poco, but that is also a comparison that breaks down in generalization.

In a grid-tied PV system, any attempt to create parity needs to account for the net metering scheme used. If net metering is not in place, then using estimated PV production as the denominator for your COP calculation is only valid if every possible kWh the system can generate is consumed. If net metering is in place, assuming that full retail value will be assigned to your excess generation over the life of the system is questionable. Using the words competitive and parity at all is kind of misleading... those terms only apply when the environmental conditions allow PV generation. At night, or in bad weather, you need a grid to fall back on.

Encouraging DIY is a great message. Suggesting that PV generation is likely to save money over grid power that is < $0.10 / kWh is irresponsible, even with DIY. Yes, it is possible, but hardly assured.

Edit: BTW, I'm not sure what money you think CA is throwing at people who want to install PV, but as far as I know, the state no longer offers anything for residential installations, and only a small minority of Poco's have rebates at this point.

Edit further: I forgot mention the validity of using system lifetime production for the COP calculation. How many people live in the same home for 25 years? Hint: not many.

[SunEagle]

I think we all are looking for a level playing floor.

The point of this thread is to calculate and use a cost of production metric to see how you stand in the market place. You go with what you got or what someone gives you...its the American way.

We can complain about the subsidies and give-a-ways in ALL industries, but it is what it is until its changed.

So the fact is, that a DIY type person here in the Midwest, with the necessary skills can install and operate a distributed generation plant TODAY, that is competitive in the marketplace with the large caveat that you do not count your own labor. If you have to pay somebody to do this work for you, then I totally agree, we're not there yet (unless you can get some crazy money from CA or NJ).

IMO we should be encouraging the DIY type person.

I will add some caution to encouraging a person to DIY a solar pv system. While there are many educated people that understand all of the electrical and mechanical requirements to perform that install, IMO the vast majority of the public do not possess even 10% of what is needed to safely do the work. While that 10% may be a low estimate all you have to do is read the majority of postings on this forum to see that a lot of people do not have a clue about solar and how it works or what is required to build and safely install even a small off grid system.

It might be worth your while to compile this data but I am not sure how you would develop an accurate spreadsheet showing the cost of production of a DIY pv system (based solely on hardware) when there are so many hardware selections and prices. Some panels/inverters are very expensive and others are much lower in cost. A 300watt panel will have different costs depending on who you purchase it from and where you make the purchase. The same cost differences goes for String or Micro inverters. So like the MEANS Construction Estimating Guide you will need multipliers based on location and hardware sources to level the playing field and get an accurate $/kWh cost of a DIY system anywhere in the US or outside.

My last comment is that while some DIY people do not care how much time and effort they put into a project, everyone has some "value" associated with their labor. Where and how you spend your time is your business. Based on my past I spent way too much time "at work" or working on a personal "project" when I should have been spending that time with my family. I now would rather pay someone to perform the hard labor while I use my time for family.

[DanS26]

Yeah, the COP calc...too complicated for an engineer....too simple for an accountant.

Its hard to please everyone.