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  • What if? Best way to keep an unused battery.

    What if I had a 100W mono panel with a 30A PCM charge controller. Like this: http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-100W-Mo...ds=solar+panel

    And what if I also had a 105Ah deep cycle battery. Like this: http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/stor...tery-st27dc180

    And finally, what if I had them and didn't use them for a long time since it is rare the power goes out and I have generators to keep my fridge and freezer cold during short power outages or to run my wood furnace blower during those times.

    Tertiary backup that may very rarely get used. What is the best way to keep the battery? Keep it on the solar anyway and let it maintain? Keep the battery disconnected all the time but once a month hook up to battery charger to "top off"? Store it in my tornado shelter for constant temp?

    I have been thinking that it could be sort of a cushion so the little generator wouldn't have to run all the time. e.g. the power is out for a week or two in one of those nice ice storms here in OK with aerial powerlines, so run the generator for a while to charge then run the furnace blower off the battery and if the world goes totally to hell, at least I could move the warm air from the furnace around for a couple hours a day with no power and no fuel for generators. I realize that is all I can hope to get out of the battery running a 3A 12v car radiator fan, and I'm ok with those limitations. I have the funds to get this stuff now, but don't know if I will in the future but don't want to do it if the battery will die all by itself in a year without even using it.

    Will leaving a battery sitting without use be worse for it than leaving it on the charge controller (trickle charger) all the time? I have searched and found both are the 'right' way.

    Forgive me if there is already a thread that covers this but I searched and couldn't find one. Thanks.

  • #2
    Originally posted by rhawkman View Post
    What if I had a 100W mono panel with a 30A PCM charge controller. Like this: http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-100W-Mo...ds=solar+panel

    And what if I also had a 105Ah deep cycle battery. Like this: http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/stor...tery-st27dc180

    And finally, what if I had them and didn't use them for a long time since it is rare the power goes out and I have generators to keep my fridge and freezer cold during short power outages or to run my wood furnace blower during those times.

    Tertiary backup that may very rarely get used. What is the best way to keep the battery? Keep it on the solar anyway and let it maintain? Keep the battery disconnected all the time but once a month hook up to battery charger to "top off"? Store it in my tornado shelter for constant temp?

    I have been thinking that it could be sort of a cushion so the little generator wouldn't have to run all the time. e.g. the power is out for a week or two in one of those nice ice storms here in OK with aerial powerlines, so run the generator for a while to charge then run the furnace blower off the battery and if the world goes totally to hell, at least I could move the warm air from the furnace around for a couple hours a day with no power and no fuel for generators. I realize that is all I can hope to get out of the battery running a 3A 12v car radiator fan, and I'm ok with those limitations. I have the funds to get this stuff now, but don't know if I will in the future but don't want to do it if the battery will die all by itself in a year without even using it.

    Will leaving a battery sitting without use be worse for it than leaving it on the charge controller (trickle charger) all the time? I have searched and found both are the 'right' way.

    Forgive me if there is already a thread that covers this but I searched and couldn't find one. Thanks.
    The gentlest way to keep a battery at full charge is just a constant application of the Float voltage. But that is not always possible, and for batteries which are not optimized for float service may actually reduce life compared to occasional controlled cycling. YMMV.
    SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by inetdog View Post
      The gentlest way to keep a battery at full charge is just a constant application of the Float voltage. But that is not always possible, and for batteries which are not optimized for float service may actually reduce life compared to occasional controlled cycling. YMMV.
      Thanks. So to float charge would you use the solar panel all the time hooked up or is a trickle charger like used on a motorcycle in the winter a better fit since it would be more consistent and continuous? By the way, I am asking cuz Exide has not answered the question I asked them.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by rhawkman View Post
        Thanks. So to float charge would you use the solar panel all the time hooked up or is a trickle charger like used on a motorcycle in the winter a better fit since it would be more consistent and continuous?
        Part of the problem with those is that they either do a constant endless trickle, usually at the wrong voltage, or don't do a good job of float since they are designed for vehicular applications where they may actually wait for the battery to self-discharge before trickling again. Not to mention most don't do much if any testing. Some are too small to actually achieve a good float, and just throw up their hands and timeout to float instead - which if your battery is discharged, just sits there because there isn't enough current to get the ocv any higher. That means a false sense of security.

        My recommendation for your needs is the Tecmate-Optimate 6. Here we go into salesman mode again, but it excels in float as it is NOT continuous, but alternates every 30 minutes to lets the battery get a breather. It also TESTS the battery every 12 hours or so, and makes a decision, and will warn you of what it found if any. Sounds like a complicated charger, but you can connect and walk away if you like.

        I have other chargers that I like, but NONE of them does what the Optimate does. Yes, I'm a fan, but that is only because I do weird stuff like follow charger algorithms with my Fluke volt and ammeters, make charts, and generally geek out to prove that they do what they say they do.

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        • #5
          Holy guacamole!!! A hundred bucks to keep an $89 battery good. Although, having said that (could you hear my voice increase?) it looks like it could be a very good all around replacement for my 6/12v charger that my dad had as long as I can remember, so it's probably nearly 50 years old. It only gets used about once every two months on my little diesel kubota. Thanks, I will seriously think about getting that. It doesn't look all fancy like the stuff you see in the stores nowadays but it does everything. Sweet.

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          • #6
            Honestly you cannot use solar charge controllers for battery storage. While Float or Constant Voltage is the best charging algorithm for lead acid batteries, Solar chargers have sensors built in to start the 3 stage charging algorithm every morning regardless of the SOC of the battery. That means the battery gets hammered everyday with an over charge. One way to work around it is to to select a panel wattage low enough that does not cause the battery any real stress but enough to over come self discharge rates. Select the right panel current and you do not even need a controller, just a Blocking Diode. Otherwise it is best to use a good quality commercial AC Float Battery charger with adjustable output.

            Ham radio operators and Telecom have it down to a science, they just use their DC power supplies set to the correct voltage. When power is on everything operates from the power supply. When power fails batteries are already online to take over without interruption.
            MSEE, PE

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            • #7
              Derek, I was trying to be thoughful (think before asking) and careful cuz I didn't want to give you another reason to yell at me

              After over a year and a half on here reading and learning, I wonder if there shouldn't just be a notice at the beginning that says "NO! You don't want solar unless there is absolutely, positively no other alternative." What I have learned is why I bought a little generator at tractor supply recently that can run all my food storage appliances. And have my bigger one that I am going to wire a receptacle on my well pump so I could get water with that gen if needed.

              I still want to do something with one of those 100W kits but can't figure out what. It's an itch I haven't been able to get over. Ok, I did get my 5W panel that runs my solar heater fan, but that's not anything that is very versatile...sun shines, fan blows...done.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by rhawkman View Post
                Derek, I was trying to be thoughful (think before asking) and careful cuz I didn't want to give you another reason to yell at me
                I AM NOT GOING TO YELL AT YOU. I just type slowly so you can understand.

                Originally posted by rhawkman View Post
                After over a year and a half on here reading and learning, I wonder if there shouldn't just be a notice at the beginning that says "NO! You don't want solar unless there is absolutely, positively no other alternative."
                Nah I would not say that. I have no problem with GTI systems as they can under the right conditions have an economic benefit. Having said that all subsidies end in a less than two years and that will likely crash the market as it pretty much removes the possibility in most areas for you to live long enough to break even. As for battery systems unless you pay more than 60-cent per Kwh there is not a snow balls chance in He!! you will break even. So given that yeah stay away from off-grid solar if there is are less expensive and more effective alternatives. Not only cannot a off-grid system ever save you money, it has no chance to offset any emissions because they are just too inefficient to generate more energy than it takes to make the system and keep it going.

                Back to a trickle charger for batteries. A few years back Shell Oil made 28 cell solar panels to be used on battery systems for traffic lights and telemetry applications in remote area like an intersection in the middle of no where. A 28 cell panel does not require a charge controller, just a Blocking Diode to prevent the panel from discharging the battery at night. a 28 volt panel has a vmp of roughly 14.5 volts and when you add a diode drops that down to 13.5 volts perfect for a Float Charger.

                Having said that you can use a low power battery panel as a Trickle Charger . Ignore the wattage rating, only thing you are interested in is the IMP current. You want the Imp to be no lower than C/100 and no higher than C/50. So if you have a 100 AH battery you are looking for panel that has an Imp of 1 to 2 amps or 15 to 30 watts 12 volt battery panel. Then all you need is a Blocking Diode and a 2 amp job cost a thin dime. If you want to knock down the evoltage a bit just use more than one diode in series. For each diode you ad, you are removing 1 cell in the panel. That way you can turn a 36 cell 12 volt battery panel into 30 cells.

                Was that so bad? I just typed slowly for you.

                MSEE, PE

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                  I AM NOT GOING TO YELL AT YOU. I just type slowly so you can understand. [/IMG]
                  To be honest, I derive great pleasure in reading your responses. I love when you are 'almost' tactful in letting someone (me included) know they are being stupid. I learned enough here that when I go on Amazon and see what some people say, I utter 'Moron!' Stuff like I have a harbor freight 45 watt panel and 1500 watt inverter and want to run my window a/c.

                  So in lieu of solar (so far) I have two drums of fuel and two generators.

                  I will go out on a limb here and ask what you think of those 100w kits and that battery as a hobby set up? I wouldn't even think about it if I could find a steam system to use the wood on my land for making electricity, but alas, steam is nearly as expensive as solar.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rhawkman View Post
                    I will go out on a limb here and ask what you think of those 100w kits and that battery as a hobby set up? I wouldn't even think about it if I could find a steam system to use the wood on my land for making electricity, but alas, steam is nearly as expensive as solar.
                    Well I think most kits are way over priced using cheap components. 9 out of 10 times you can buy discrete components of higher quality and less expense and they will be matched to play well together. I have seen to many kits that look something like this. 100 amp battery panel, 10 amp PWM controller, 12 volt 35 AH battery, and a 1000 watt 12 volt inverter. You have been around long enough to know that is laughable. Am I lying?

                    If you want to play get a 100 watt panel, 10 amp PWM controller, 12 volt 50 to 70 AH AGM battery, and a 200 watt MSW inverter. All of the pieces fit and work with each other.
                    MSEE, PE

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                    • #11
                      Thanks Derek, that is pretty much what I was looking at doing, but with that inexpensive (cheap) Exide 105Ah battery. 1: It's cheap, B: it's available at tractor supply near me, and IV: it's a cheap 105Ah battery. Then I could scrounge 12v stuff off cars from a junkyard like the radiator fan and avoid an inverter since I have generators for that. Although I did find some pretty cool LED work lights for $20. 10w and they run off 110 or 12v. One by my woodpile and three in the shed/barn/garage.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rhawkman View Post
                        Holy guacamole!!! A hundred bucks to keep an $89 battery good.
                        Look at it this way - with no maintenance, that could very well be $89 down the drain. It costs less and is less hassle than an inexpensive $100 solar setup, which usually means el-cheapo charge controller etc.

                        Ok, how about the slightly smaller amperage Optimate-5? Same stuff, just less charging amps.

                        Just blasting it now and then with dad's old charger works too - which are usually not very well voltage regulated, and use the typical taper-charge technique from around the turn of the (last) century.

                        I look upon it as a tool that you could use for far more than just your battery in storage. Your Kubota is one. Personal vehicles as maybe a PM thing once a month or two? Easier to schlep around than the solar kit.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PNjunction View Post
                          ....My recommendation for your needs is the Tecmate-Optimate 6. Here we go into salesman mode again, but it excels in float as it is NOT continuous, but alternates every 30 minutes to lets the battery get a breather......
                          What about the Genius line of battery chargers ?
                          http://www.geniuschargers.com/
                          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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                          • #14
                            Mike, I know nothing about the chargers. Recall that I am still using the same one I grew up with ummm, a couple of years ago It works for charging the battery in a vehicle that won't start, but I'm sure it isn't the most accurate thing in the world. I will say it is obviously a damn sturdy thing, though.

                            PN, I was looking at all the Optimate stuff. Every review I read was glowing on all their products and was actually looking at the 5.

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                            • #15
                              My two cents...

                              I work with some rechargeable SLA type batteries at work we use for battery backup of outside equipment we sell that is solar panel charged.

                              If I wanted to store the battery and keep it good, a couple simple ideas come to mind.

                              1. I would put a good full charge on it first, then just put it on a small trickle / float charger to keep it topped off if there's one available.
                              2. I would keep it in a cool environment, they will last much much much longer if kept cool. Heat kills batteries.
                              3. I would put an insulator or 2x4 under it if keeping it on the floor, setting on the ground can slowly discharge a battery (don't ask me why, it just does)

                              There you have it. With this valuable information and a dollar you can get a coffee at McDonalds...

                              Brian
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